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  1. #31
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I was thinking on the way to work this morning about my roomie, who I type as an MBTI ISTJ, but who just really annoys the crap out of me in how (1) despite being so rational in Te sorts of ways, often seems so self-focused and self-interested to the point of not being able to just do things for others and (2) who just doesn't TALK. She doesn't put off any cues for me to know even how she's feeling. Not a hint of smile, or body language, or anything else that I could cue from. It's like talking to a robot, except that robots would provide information that I could go off -- I not only get nothing from the body language/face cue realm, I also do not get actual information that people typically provide in casual conversation, to gauge where she's at. There is stuff going on inside (because she expects me to read her mind, which I can't do), but hell if I know what it is.

    I started pondering the Si+Fi loop thing, since her Fi seems very strong. (She actually reminds me of an introverted version of my ESFP son, who is very Se and very very Fi.) The underlying "self-focus" is the same in both of them. A Dom-Tert loop would make sense. My roomie, despite being ISTJ and working a tech job, is notoriously bad at Te things outside the realm of the cerebral; the house is such a constant mess that I'm frustrated to the point of moving out. Most ISTJs I've known are far neater, some even to the point of being a little OCD at times; but the house is essentially like a male dorm room, full of clutter and junk everywhere, no organization, things get dropped wherever they get dropped, nothing has a place. The entire house is also a construction work in progress... things half-done and likely to never be finished. She doesn't "feel" like doing it, so she just doesn't... it's on the par of my male ISFP friends earlier in life.

    (It's horrible when the INTP in the house is actually the one who fights to organize things and create places for them and throws out things without a place. I've been trained by ISFJs on how to organize, and I can't even stand the mess myself despite being somewhat cluttered.)

    Yet her T is undeniable; and her Fi typically comes out more like these grandiose gifts to the few people in the world she cares about... but only because she happens to feel like giving those gifts. When she doesn't feel like giving, she's notoriously self-focused and reluctant to give. Everything is very spontaneous.

    She's the baby of four, never really seems to like her family much (so I'll assume she withdrew a lot), and her mom's house is full of clutter and stacks of things as well.

    It's like she dropped into Si+Fi in order to stay removed from the rest of the family growing up, never had to learn how to do anything practical/tangible because the rest of the family didn't bother either, and her Te was shunted into mental activity but not really any physical activity for whatever reason.

    I don't think I ever got a clear example of a Dom-Tert loop in that type of personality; thinking maybe this is what it could look like.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  2. #32
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luismas View Post
    I have taken the Enneagram test. Type 4 and 5 both scored the highest. I relate a bit more to Type 5, though. 5w4? What do you make of it, mal?
    An INFJ with 5w4 is not uncommon. The 4 drives toward uniqueness and the 5 toward objectivity.
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  3. #33
    Senior Member Owfin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luismas View Post
    I have taken the Enneagram test. Type 4 and 5 both scored the highest. I relate a bit more to Type 5, though. 5w4? What do you make of it, mal?
    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    An INFJ with 5w4 is not uncommon. The 4 drives toward uniqueness and the 5 toward objectivity.
    Also, 5 is secretly quite a sensitive type. They withdraw because they don't want to get hurt. This would be consistent with F.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Owfin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I was thinking on the way to work this morning about my roomie, who I type as an MBTI ISTJ, but who just really annoys the crap out of me in how (1) despite being so rational in Te sorts of ways, often seems so self-focused and self-interested to the point of not being able to just do things for others and (2) who just doesn't TALK. She doesn't put off any cues for me to know even how she's feeling. Not a hint of smile, or body language, or anything else that I could cue from. It's like talking to a robot, except that robots would provide information that I could go off -- I not only get nothing from the body language/face cue realm, I also do not get actual information that people typically provide in casual conversation, to gauge where she's at. There is stuff going on inside (because she expects me to read her mind, which I can't do), but hell if I know what it is.

    I started pondering the Si+Fi loop thing, since her Fi seems very strong. (She actually reminds me of an introverted version of my ESFP son, who is very Se and very very Fi.) The underlying "self-focus" is the same in both of them. A Dom-Tert loop would make sense. My roomie, despite being ISTJ and working a tech job, is notoriously bad at Te things outside the realm of the cerebral; the house is such a constant mess that I'm frustrated to the point of moving out. Most ISTJs I've known are far neater, some even to the point of being a little OCD at times; but the house is essentially like a male dorm room, full of clutter and junk everywhere, no organization, things get dropped wherever they get dropped, nothing has a place. The entire house is also a construction work in progress... things half-done and likely to never be finished. She doesn't "feel" like doing it, so she just doesn't... it's on the par of my male ISFP friends earlier in life.

    (It's horrible when the INTP in the house is actually the one who fights to organize things and create places for them and throws out things without a place. I've been trained by ISFJs on how to organize, and I can't even stand the mess myself despite being somewhat cluttered.)

    Yet her T is undeniable; and her Fi typically comes out more like these grandiose gifts to the few people in the world she cares about... but only because she happens to feel like giving those gifts. When she doesn't feel like giving, she's notoriously self-focused and reluctant to give. Everything is very spontaneous.

    She's the baby of four, never really seems to like her family much (so I'll assume she withdrew a lot), and her mom's house is full of clutter and stacks of things as well.

    It's like she dropped into Si+Fi in order to stay removed from the rest of the family growing up, never had to learn how to do anything practical/tangible because the rest of the family didn't bother either, and her Te was shunted into mental activity but not really any physical activity for whatever reason.

    I don't think I ever got a clear example of a Dom-Tert loop in that type of personality; thinking maybe this is what it could look like.
    Just looks like a non fun ISTJ who isn't as tidy as stereotype. ISTJs tend to treat fi like something special, like "Wowie, look at me! I felt a strong emotion about something! This is exceptional!"

    Also, since you are an INTP, you see feeling as Fe. Fi types tend to not drop emotional cues (especially in tertiary) because they don't pick up on feelings by using external evidence, but rather consider feeling a very internal thing. I will say that I am an animated and smiley ISTJ, though I am a bit out of the norm for ISTJs in that respect.

    It is ridiculous for the ISTJ to expect you to read her mind. If you have feelings so internally, you should not expect others to be able to read them. If I want people to know about my emotions, I tell them, because I know that I am not good at expressing nor reading them accurately. Perhaps you could ask her if she would like it if you expected her to just read all of your emotions. That should hopefully make her think.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owfin View Post
    Just looks like a non fun ISTJ who isn't as tidy as stereotype. ISTJs tend to treat fi like something special, like "Wowie, look at me! I felt a strong emotion about something! This is exceptional!"

    Also, since you are an INTP, you see feeling as Fe. Fi types tend to not drop emotional cues (especially in tertiary) because they don't pick up on feelings by using external evidence, but rather consider feeling a very internal thing. I will say that I am an animated and smiley ISTJ, though I am a bit out of the norm for ISTJs in that respect.
    Uh... no. You are not really perceiving the extremity of my roommate.

    I have quite a number of ISTJ friends IRL (as well as a variety of friends of various types), so I have a good sense of the range of the type, including the anal retentives AND the messier types... and she is far outside the range of anyone, regardless of type. I'm well aware of the Fi tert in ITJ and can actually perceive the "warmth" thing when it's there. She really does not give ANY of the cues even the reserved ITJs normally give me IRL.

    It is ridiculous for the ISTJ to expect you to read her mind. If you have feelings so internally, you should not expect others to be able to read them. If I want people to know about my emotions, I tell them, because I know that I am not good at expressing nor reading them accurately. Perhaps you could ask her if she would like it if you expected her to just read all of your emotions. That should hopefully make her think.
    Lol. again, while I agree with the gist of what you are saying here (reading people's minds is ridiculous), you're not really getting the essence of where things already are. We've already had that discussion you've suggested more than a few times.

    We've also had the discussion about house cleanliness more than a few times, and I haven't even shared some details of dirty spots of the house that most members here would find horrific. I honestly need to move out as soon as I scrape together some finances, because it's been coming up on two years this spring and I'm done trying to deal with the mess and also not being able to make a headway in discussion with her.

    She just doesn't do anything we discuss, and I have no leverage except moving out.

    Anyway, this is not a discussion of my roommate and me asking for advice, it was mentioned in connection with this thread. The dom-tert loop, as I was thinking this morning, is the only reasonable explanation i currently have (after puzzling over this for a good two years) as to why she is this way... since otherwise she's a successful techie (makes between $80-90K a year).
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  6. #36
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owfin View Post
    Also, 5 is secretly quite a sensitive type. They withdraw because they don't want to get hurt. This would be consistent with F.
    That's not to say Thinkers don't have feelings that get hurt. Withdrawing is an Introverted trait.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #37
    Senior Member Owfin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Uh... no. You are not really perceiving the extremity of my roommate.

    I have quite a number of ISTJ friends IRL (as well as a variety of friends of various types), so I have a good sense of the range of the type, including the anal retentives AND the messier types... and she is far outside the range of anyone, regardless of type. I'm well aware of the Fi tert in ITJ and can actually perceive the "warmth" thing when it's there. She really does not give ANY of the cues even the reserved ITJs normally give me IRL.



    Lol. again, while I agree with the gist of what you are saying here (reading people's minds is ridiculous), you're not really getting the essence of where things already are. We've already had that discussion you've suggested more than a few times.

    We've also had the discussion about house cleanliness more than a few times, and I haven't even shared some details of dirty spots of the house that most members here would fine horrific. I honestly need to move out as soon as I scrape together some finances, because it's been coming up on two years this spring and I'm done trying to deal with the mess and also not being able to make a headway in discussion with her.

    She just doesn't do it.
    Oh, she's that sort.

    Take comfort that once you can get out, she'll be living with nothing but her own festering pile of misery.

  8. #38
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owfin View Post
    Oh, she's that sort.
    Take comfort that once you can get out, she'll be living with nothing but her own festering pile of misery.
    Yeah, she means well, but she's had trouble building relationships, she's 35 and FINALLY starting to make some actual connections with others. If I'm gone, she'll have no choice but to clean anyway, because no one else will come over otherwise.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #39
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yeah, she means well, but she's had trouble building relationships, she's 35 and FINALLY starting to make some actual connections with others. If I'm gone, she'll have no choice but to clean anyway, because no one else will come over otherwise.
    or be like me not clean and not invite anyone over.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  10. #40
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I was thinking on the way to work this morning about my roomie, who I type as an MBTI ISTJ, but who just really annoys the crap out of me in how (1) despite being so rational in Te sorts of ways, often seems so self-focused and self-interested to the point of not being able to just do things for others and (2) who just doesn't TALK. She doesn't put off any cues for me to know even how she's feeling. Not a hint of smile, or body language, or anything else that I could cue from. It's like talking to a robot, except that robots would provide information that I could go off -- I not only get nothing from the body language/face cue realm, I also do not get actual information that people typically provide in casual conversation, to gauge where she's at. There is stuff going on inside (because she expects me to read her mind, which I can't do), but hell if I know what it is.

    I started pondering the Si+Fi loop thing, since her Fi seems very strong. (She actually reminds me of an introverted version of my ESFP son, who is very Se and very very Fi.) The underlying "self-focus" is the same in both of them. A Dom-Tert loop would make sense. My roomie, despite being ISTJ and working a tech job, is notoriously bad at Te things outside the realm of the cerebral; the house is such a constant mess that I'm frustrated to the point of moving out. Most ISTJs I've known are far neater, some even to the point of being a little OCD at times; but the house is essentially like a male dorm room, full of clutter and junk everywhere, no organization, things get dropped wherever they get dropped, nothing has a place. The entire house is also a construction work in progress... things half-done and likely to never be finished. She doesn't "feel" like doing it, so she just doesn't... it's on the par of my male ISFP friends earlier in life.

    (It's horrible when the INTP in the house is actually the one who fights to organize things and create places for them and throws out things without a place. I've been trained by ISFJs on how to organize, and I can't even stand the mess myself despite being somewhat cluttered.)

    Yet her T is undeniable; and her Fi typically comes out more like these grandiose gifts to the few people in the world she cares about... but only because she happens to feel like giving those gifts. When she doesn't feel like giving, she's notoriously self-focused and reluctant to give. Everything is very spontaneous.

    She's the baby of four, never really seems to like her family much (so I'll assume she withdrew a lot), and her mom's house is full of clutter and stacks of things as well.

    It's like she dropped into Si+Fi in order to stay removed from the rest of the family growing up, never had to learn how to do anything practical/tangible because the rest of the family didn't bother either, and her Te was shunted into mental activity but not really any physical activity for whatever reason.

    I don't think I ever got a clear example of a Dom-Tert loop in that type of personality; thinking maybe this is what it could look like.
    Glossed over this at first, but it is just like a fiend of mine, who I've sometimes mentioned as an ISTJ with a very messy house.

    This type is likely a pure "Melancholy Compulsive"
    http://www.pastoral-counseling-cente...-inclusion.htm
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    who had a bad childhood, and rebelled against everything. They compulsively reject people in both dimensions of temperament (expressive and responsive), and feel very intruded upon by others, such as family members growing up. So they completely retreat into themselves even more than the temperament would naturally lead them, and the messiness is likely a revolt of their independence from feeling so intruded upon by others.

    Otherwise, their Feeling does show, to close relationships. Otherwise, they do display very typical Si + Te attitudes.
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