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  1. #21
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luismas View Post
    (I still find it strange in how I can relate to a great part of the INTP mindset. Hm. Second-guessing again.)
    Sometimes the Enneagram is more explanatory with its wing-theory than the MBTI. The 4w5 would likely have traits generally arising from the INFJ and INTP realms, especially if the 5-wing is strong.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luismas View Post
    So we could perhaps say that the dominant-tertiary loops are important due to the role they have in amplifying a personality disorder linked to the overdependence on the dominant functions? It has been said that Ni is also somewhat related to schizotypal personality, (I would suggest steering away from the disorder-function debate for now). For instance, how would Ti or Fi affect Ni?
    I'm pretty sure SimulatedWorld over on that other forum has that kind of detail worked out, as in Ti or Fi affecting Ni. He has written a few articles on Jungian functions and their interrelationships. But the personality-disorder/function one-to-one correlations are just hypothetical. I don't see how anybody can match ONE disorder per function when there are something like 15 or 16 disorders and also subtypes. I've steered away from using hypotheticals anyway. Ideally speaking, the Ti dom is schizotypal but then you may find an Ni dom in reality who is schizotypal. What then? Archetypes are just heuristical models serving as rules of thumb.


    I've been blessed in this forum with having such a wide variety of function relationships to sort through and analyze. This place is like a gold mine of data.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #23
    From the Undertow CuriousFeeling's Avatar
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    From taking the personality disorder test a while ago, I tended to score highest on paranoid, which according to the OPs article:
    ISFP/INTJ: Fi/Ni or Ni/Fi--Paranoid Personality Disorder. These types are your typical conspiracy theorists; they cling deeply to their personal values and can find a conspiracy to assault or attack those values everywhere they look. Chronically distrustful of others' intentions for no legitimate reason, these types are certain they are the only ones who really know "the truth." The inferior function, Te or Se, can sometimes lead to an unconscious desire to attract the attention of or lead/organize others in efforts to expose the nefarious conspiracies they invariably see everywhere. If Te/Se were doing its job, these types would be able to look around them and observe empirical evidence that most of their theories are probably not reflected in reality, but as they rely almost entirely on internal validation, Ni will go to any lengths to justify Fi's emotion-based suspicions. (I mentioned Dale Gribble from King of the Hill in a previous article--he's a perfect example.)
    Then it indicates more Ni-Fi loop of the INTJ. I can be a bit of a conspiracy theorist when it comes to politicians and the like. I tend to be careful of others' intentions from the get-go until I get to know them better.

    But... I also have very strong Ti as well, and this article indicates the following about Ni-Ti loops:
    ISTP/INFJ: Ti/Ni or Ni/Ti--Schizoid Personality Disorder. These types are socially incompetent for lack of trying, because they see little to no value in significant interaction with others. They live in their own abstract worlds, constantly second-guessing themselves as Ti poses a framework for a problem and Ni shoots it down as too definitionally precise. Without any real external input, these two functions will dream up all sorts of elaborate systems and implications for them, only to repeat their own self-defeating behavior, never bothering to emphasize putting any of its intense ideas into practice. Frequent disregard for rules, laws and other forms of behavioral standards is common, as no function provides any significant sense of external influence. If Se/Fe were doing its job, the user would recognize the value of connecting with others and of paying attention to their needs, preferences, habits and appearances.
    Living within abstract worlds, constantly second-guessing oneself... dreaming up elaborate systems to a degree. But I'd rather put intense ideas into practice. Trouble is, getting other people to join in. When I had taken that personality disorder test, I scored moderate for Schizoid.

    With this conflicting information here, I am uncertain if I can determine myself either way as INFJ or INTJ based off of this information. I know I am an Ni-dom, seeking for the external world to meet my own inner expectations of it. I know I go through deep set of Ni-Ti rabbit holes... but I also notice the cautious Ni-Fi loop as well... do people mean what they say? What are their intentions?

    Some people on here have picked up Fi vibes from me too... so it might be Ni-Fi for all I know.
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousFeeling View Post
    From taking the personality disorder test a while ago, I tended to score highest on paranoid, which according to the OPs article:


    Then it indicates more Ni-Fi loop of the INTJ. I can be a bit of a conspiracy theorist when it comes to politicians and the like. I tend to be careful of others' intentions from the get-go until I get to know them better.

    But... I also have very strong Ti as well, and this article indicates the following about Ni-Ti loops:


    Living within abstract worlds, constantly second-guessing oneself... dreaming up elaborate systems to a degree. But I'd rather put intense ideas into practice. Trouble is, getting other people to join in. When I had taken that personality disorder test, I scored moderate for Schizoid.

    With this conflicting information here, I am uncertain if I can determine myself either way as INFJ or INTJ based off of this information. I know I am an Ni-dom, seeking for the external world to meet my own inner expectations of it. I know I go through deep set of Ni-Ti rabbit holes... but I also notice the cautious Ni-Fi loop as well... do people mean what they say? What are their intentions?

    Some people on here have picked up Fi vibes from me too... so it might be Ni-Fi for all I know.
    Those articles are not based in real facts, they only draw connections between ideas. I can see how the "Ni" in theory is "paranoid" in theory. I just don't see this in practice. The question is, what would a dom-tert loop theory look like for you, if it even applies?

    Another question is, do you score higher than the moderate "schizoid" on any scales? Was it the MCMI, or an online test? If you don't score very high on any scales, then there is the possibility that the dom-tert loop doesn't apply in any significant way. Most of the time we become aware of problems only when they bother us. If you're not particularly neurotic then I don't see how you can find your auxiliary type through tertiaries.

    For another thing: Jung allowed for two auxiliaries. As long as those functions are not held in an undifferentiated unconscious state, they can be auxiliaries. It is then only necessary to determine which one is the more active and you'll likely have your MBTI type.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #25
    From the Undertow CuriousFeeling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    Those articles are not based in real facts, they only draw connections between ideas. I can see how the "Ni" in theory is "paranoid" in theory. I just don't see this in practice. The question is, what would a dom-tert loop theory look like for you, if it even applies?

    Another question is, do you score higher than the moderate "schizoid" on any scales? Was it the MCMI, or an online test? If you don't score very high on any scales, then there is the possibility that the dom-tert loop doesn't apply in any significant way. Most of the time we become aware of problems only when they bother us. If you're not particularly neurotic then I don't see how you can find your auxiliary type through tertiaries.

    For another thing: Jung allowed for two auxiliaries. As long as those functions are not held in an undifferentiated unconscious state, they can be auxiliaries. It is then only necessary to determine which one is the more active and you'll likely have your MBTI type.
    In my case my own dominant-tertiary loop would resemble these situations:

    - An almost stubborn defiance to my own inner goals/visions, an intensified drive to achieve them and becoming even more individualistic.
    - Loss of temper, feeling like someone has something against my inner goals and visions, the world doesn't want me to achieve them. Desire to change the world to meet my inner goals.
    - Feeling out of emotional control leads to fear of loss of control, which then leads to rationalization of a problem, analyzing it, and attempting to emotionally detach myself and cut my emotional ties from things.
    - Analysis of situation from an objective standpoint gives me more comfort and certainty. I end up feeling stronger when I am more objective. I end up feeling more vulnerable when under a more emotional state. It becomes a balancing act until I reach inner equilibrium.

    I took one of the tests on the forum here. Not sure if it was the MCMI or not, but it was definitely an online test. Under a lot of stress, or if a family member or someone close to me is in danger, I tend to become much more paranoid than usual, and my neuroticism scale goes up on the Big 5 tests. That and extended stressful moments can throw me into a bout of depression/anxiety. But when I am in any other circumstance, I tend to have a clear mind about things and don't let my emotions cloud my judgment.

    Two auxiliaries? So it could be either Te or Fe in the case of an Ni-dom. I suppose in social interaction I'll be more Fe oriented, but when I am involved with a task, I'll tend to become much more Te oriented.
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    ― Friedrich Nietzsche




  6. #26
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousFeeling View Post
    In my case my own dominant-tertiary loop would resemble these situations:

    - An almost stubborn defiance to my own inner goals/visions, an intensified drive to achieve them and becoming even more individualistic.
    - Loss of temper, feeling like someone has something against my inner goals and visions, the world doesn't want me to achieve them. Desire to change the world to meet my inner goals.
    - Feeling out of emotional control leads to fear of loss of control, which then leads to rationalization of a problem, analyzing it, and attempting to emotionally detach myself and cut my emotional ties from things.
    - Analysis of situation from an objective standpoint gives me more comfort and certainty. I end up feeling stronger when I am more objective. I end up feeling more vulnerable when under a more emotional state. It becomes a balancing act until I reach inner equilibrium.

    I took one of the tests on the forum here. Not sure if it was the MCMI or not, but it was definitely an online test. Under a lot of stress, or if a family member or someone close to me is in danger, I tend to become much more paranoid than usual, and my neuroticism scale goes up on the Big 5 tests. That and extended stressful moments can throw me into a bout of depression/anxiety. But when I am in any other circumstance, I tend to have a clear mind about things and don't let my emotions cloud my judgment.

    Two auxiliaries? So it could be either Te or Fe in the case of an Ni-dom. I suppose in social interaction I'll be more Fe oriented, but when I am involved with a task, I'll tend to become much more Te oriented.
    For an INTP I score fairly high on the Sensor category, and function tests reveal that Si is much higher up on the ladder than Se. Sometimes Si can function as another auxiliary for me, and most of the time it functions as a tertiary. The difference between the two is simply that the Si-aux helps me to judge present experiences based on past experiences. For example, "X worked in the past so it should work now." But such experiential reasoning is a very undeveloped function and when I try to rely on it the results are less than optimal. Si requires a step-by-step J approach to problem-solving. So I have to avoid situations requiring it. Si-tert is much more active, but primitive. It cooperates well with P because its activity is more spontaneous as the anxiety it works with is spontaneous. In the distinction between hindbrain and forebrain, the Si-tert is far more hindbrain.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #27
    From the Undertow CuriousFeeling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    For an INTP I score fairly high on the Sensor category, and function tests reveal that Si is much higher up on the ladder than Se. Sometimes Si can function as another auxiliary for me, and most of the time it functions as a tertiary. The difference between the two is simply that the Si-aux helps me to judge present experiences based on past experiences. For example, "X worked in the past so it should work now." But such experiential reasoning is a very undeveloped function and when I try to rely on it the results are less than optimal. Si requires a step-by-step J approach to problem-solving. So I have to avoid situations requiring it. Si-tert is much more active, but primitive. It cooperates well with P because its activity is more spontaneous as the anxiety it works with is spontaneous. In the distinction between hindbrain and forebrain, the Si-tert is far more hindbrain.
    Yeah, for an INFJ I score pretty high on the T-scale in function tests. It tends to seem almost like an auxiliary to me as well. Some days, I end up scoring higher for T than F. Usually it's a contest between Fe, Te, and Ti. Fi I have a good grasp on, but most functional tests, I score lower on it than I do Fe. Either way, my J functions are pretty darn strong in comparison to Ne, Si, and Se.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    “Thoughts are the shadows of our feelings -- always darker, emptier and simpler.”
    ― Friedrich Nietzsche




  8. #28
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousFeeling View Post
    Yeah, for an INFJ I score pretty high on the T-scale in function tests. It tends to seem almost like an auxiliary to me as well. Some days, I end up scoring higher for T than F. Usually it's a contest between Fe, Te, and Ti. Fi I have a good grasp on, but most functional tests, I score lower on it than I do Fe. Either way, my J functions are pretty darn strong in comparison to Ne, Si, and Se.
    Then one question is, if all functions are active, although the undeveloped ones are more primitive, how do the latter manifest in your life? The best way to answer this question would be to consider all your activities and then focus on what kind of function it represents. I have active Fe and active Se, although those are my lowest function scores. Their activity is just primitive in nature.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #29
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This caught my eye, and sounds alot like what my INTP has been doing lately. Any idea what causes someone to slip into this kind of loop, and how to snap them out?
    I think it's a product of anxiety, or an investment in a particular image (in this case, when an INTP tries to rely completely in "rational thought" and fears giving credence to fuzzy forms of perception and logic that aren't easily explicable). To be a little more user-friendly, I'll say typically it seems to happen when the self-identity gets rooted in this sense of having to be "perfectly intelligent" and never irrational in order to protect oneself or one's sense of self; I know in my case it happened because I felt like my environment was very critical of me unless I could explicate myself and "prove" I was right. I was typically having my experiences and perceptions questioned and doubted by parents and church and family, so I had to give a very concrete, very explicable account of myself in order to defend my psychic turf and not be crushed. (My other strategy was to withdraw.)

    This is typically what you see, too, when talking to Ti+Si looped INTPs ... they rejecting the N perceptions and "what might be true" and instead drop into this thing where they're constantly reducing everything to rational proofs based on what they've thought in the past and their prior environment (that's S coming into play), and it's basically a form of protection against anxiety, a way to keep the world at bay. N is unsettling because the information it delivers can't easily be accepted or dismissed -- it's naturally more vague in nature, and has to be accepted as-is... as a perception.

    I fixed it by getting older and mature; by getting out of that environment that I constantly felt was tearing me down if I couldn't "prove" myself all time; and by associating with others who took my less "rational" approaches to situations more seriously and accepted them as valid. So I got rid of some of the negative feedback and added more positive feedback when I explored other parts of myself besides the rational angle.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  10. #30
    Member luismas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    Sometimes the Enneagram is more explanatory with its wing-theory than the MBTI. The 4w5 would likely have traits generally arising from the INFJ and INTP realms, especially if the 5-wing is strong.
    I have taken the Enneagram test. Type 4 and 5 both scored the highest. I relate a bit more to Type 5, though. 5w4? What do you make of it, mal?

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