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  1. #11
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    I haven't developed a tert-loop analysis for all 16 types. A partial analysis would only need cover 8 of them because, for example, INFP and INTP have the same tertiary function in Si. The Si and the Ne loops above are the only two I've really pondered.

    An Ni loop (ESTJ and ESFJ) plays out, for these controlling or even dominating types, as a desire to be dominated, which manifests as masochism. But it is masochism in a controlled environment, such as occurs during masochistic sex play. This is the stereotypical ESTJ "boss" who commands an army of office employees during the day, and at night the bizarre aspect of the Ni-tert finds a dominatrix to relieve his anxious, secret fears about being a failure by losing control of his world. "Either I am a boss, or I am worthless" all-or-nothing thinking leads to extremes of behavior which may fly out of control, bringing his world he has worked so hard to build crashing down. Through the controlled masochism setting he regains power over himself, over his subjective fears of being worthless, which are compensated for during the day through controlling the objective realm of things and reducing people to objective things to be dominated. This is the loop between external control (Te in this case) and internal control (bizarre Ni behaviors). And thus through the Te-Ni loop, the dominator secretly desires to be dominated.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #12
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    are ENFP 7w8s more prone to Ne/Te loops than other ENFPs?
    I'm right here backing Elfboy on this...are we? anyone?

  3. #13
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This caught my eye, and sounds alot like what my INTP has been doing lately. Any idea what causes someone to slip into this kind of loop, and how to snap them out?
    This year I had the slightly unpleasant experience of being told by an ISTJ co-worker that "we think a lot alike." He is uninterested in typology so I can safely tell you his statement did not come from any of that kind of analysis but from untrained observation. I'll admit that when working together we've come up with some of the same ideas at the same time. Beyond that the similarity ends (I hope).

    But I think one common trait involves how the respective personalities evolve in a social setting. The INTP likes to think that everything inside, psychologically, was self-created and without external influence. This denial system keeps the INTP believing that the social realm is not necessary, is in fact inferior, the proof being the amount of irrational social behavior that goes on in the world. The world is thus kept at a safe, arms distance away, psychologically speaking.

    The INTP needs to learn to see that this idea about the social realm is not based on any "rational objective" understanding but on subjective need. This person may even be in denial about the damage that has been incurred through early social experiences. The schizophrenic INTP is an extreme example of this. With enough intelligent insight the INTP can learn to see past the delusional (supposedly intellectual) barriers that protect him from self-knowledge which he believes will only damage him further by exposing him to further danger from the outside, having thoroughly identified with these self-protective intellectual mechanisms.

    When I first entered into the personal growth realm my first thought was that I was unhealthily introverted. I simply decided to take note of typical introvert traits and just do the opposite of those. For example, an introvert who is looking for something doesn't ask for help finding it, or is very slow to ask for help; an extravert will say, almost immediately if anybody's around, "Has anybody seen my..." So I worked on more of that kind of spontaneous speech. What I didn't know at the time was that kind of spontaneity is a Pe trait (Pe being equal to Ne or Se). That means I was working on bringing forth an undifferentiated function, albeit indirectly.

    Another method was: don't keep myself in comfortable places for long. This 'comfort zone' only serves to maintain psychological defenses. The 'comfort zone' is very general and incudes things such as being reclusive. Another method is to get out and experience life. Since I don't have much joie de vivre to speak of, I use the dutiful necessity of self-maintenance, such as going to work or going to the store, as a reason to push myself into healthy activity.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #14
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    I'm right here backing Elfboy on this...are we? anyone?
    I think he is identifying Te with the 8-wing. It could work the other way, the 8-wing is simply concurrent with the Te-tert, and not that the 7w8 has more problems with the tertiary.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #15
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    I haven't developed a tert-loop analysis for all 16 types. A partial analysis would only need cover 8 of them because, for example, INFP and INTP have the same tertiary function in Si. The Si and the Ne loops above are the only two I've really pondered.

    An Ni loop (ESTJ and ESFJ) plays out, for these controlling or even dominating types, as a desire to be dominated, which manifests as masochism. But it is masochism in a controlled environment, such as occurs during masochistic sex play. This is the stereotypical ESTJ "boss" who commands an army of office employees during the day, and at night the bizarre aspect of the Ni-tert finds a dominatrix to relieve his anxious, secret fears about being a failure by losing control of his world. "Either I am a boss, or I am worthless" all-or-nothing thinking leads to extremes of behavior which may fly out of control, bringing his world he has worked so hard to build crashing down. Through the controlled masochism setting he regains power over himself, over his subjective fears of being worthless, which are compensated for during the day through controlling the objective realm of things and reducing people to objective things to be dominated. This is the loop between external control (Te in this case) and internal control (bizarre Ni behaviors). And thus through the Te-Ni loop, the dominator secretly desires to be dominated.
    You're saying and "Ni" loop for ESTJ and ESFJ. Do you mean Ne? Or ENTJ and ENFJ (but then that would be aux. And not tert.) Or are you using ither Lenore Thomson's ship model or the original conception of the tertiary as the same attitude as the dominant? (But then you didn't do that with the INxP's in discussing Si as tertiary).
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  6. #16
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    You're saying and "Ni" loop for ESTJ and ESFJ. Do you mean Ne? Or ENTJ and ENFJ (but then that would be aux. And not tert.) Or are you using ither Lenore Thomson's ship model or the original conception of the tertiary as the same attitude as the dominant? (But then you didn't do that with the INxP's in discussing Si as tertiary).
    It is what it is.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #17
    Member luismas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    That's one possibility. Ti is not necessarily schizotypal. But the basic idea is that Si reinforces a personality disorder through anxious thoughts about reliving unpleasant past episodes particularly in the social realm. The Ti-dom individual is normally a socially pleasant individual, but the Si loop brings out the worst social aspects.
    So we could perhaps say that the dominant-tertiary loops are important due to the role they have in amplifying a personality disorder linked to the overdependence on the dominant functions? It has been said that Ni is also somewhat related to schizotypal personality, (I would suggest steering away from the disorder-function debate for now). For instance, how would Ti or Fi affect Ni?

  8. #18
    Member luismas's Avatar
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    (I still find it strange in how I can relate to a great part of the INTP mindset. Hm. Second-guessing again.)

  9. #19
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    It is what it is.
    I don't understand this. What is it? Which model are you using? Or was it a typo?
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  10. #20
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I don't understand this. What is it? Which model are you using? Or was it a typo?
    There are no definite answers. Ni is supposedly a Shadow function but at any rate it is immature and held in the unconscious. In my mind I am exploring its effects on the consciousness of the ESTJ. My apologies for the confusion of calling it a "loop" function. Even as I was writing about the ESTJ the loop idea didn't make sense and it looked more like some kind of compensating mechanism, something to be explored as a different topic.

    I don't have any models to use or any models worked out. And I've been trolled with this "Lenore Thomson" so badly in the past that I've lost interest in that.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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