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  1. #61
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    edit: I see you edited your post while I was responding. I disagree with your categorization of judging being intrinsically black & white.



    Unless you didn't read my entire posts, then I can't see how you formed this impression.
    I don't think it's both - I think it's neither. I think you're confusing a strong opinion for black & white categorization, which are not the same thing. An easy-going demeanor is also not the same as having no opinion.
    I think we can actually agree on what you pointed out. I probably see strong personal convictions as "black and white". Whenever I hear an XXFP state their convictions, I feel like I am going to be judged if I don't agree with their values... like I'm a lesser person for it.

  2. #62
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    The reason people believe is because they need to.
    The rest is up in the air: could be due to personality type, engrained indoctrination, testing, choice, etc.
    I really don't understand the reason for the original post, unless it's a rant.
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  3. #63
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    I'm extremely curious- most everyone I know with Fi is incredibly black and white about their morals/values/beliefs- even when they can and will change them.

    Which I think is ridiculous. It is like they are correct until they are wrong, and then once they revise their morals, those[/I] beliefs and morals are absolutely correct and everyone else is wrong. So what is up with that?

    Example 1: I value Christian beliefs, and everything in the Bible is is absolute and not open to question. But maybe I disagree a little with this here, and a little with this there. But I am allowed to discount some of those beliefs because they don't make sense. But if anyone else does, they are going to hell, because I know what should be absolute. /brings down mighty scepter

    Why are people so pretentious as to decide that they get to decide what is right and wrong? Some things I can understand- killing babies is frowned upon by most people. But why do people get so high and mighty over certain things which many people feel are open to debates.

    For example, I know many people who have gone from atheist to Christian and it is like they can't fathom how anyone can not believe in God and how those people are going to hell. Seriously? All those years you were an atheist and then you decided, hey, this makes sense! and have no understanding?

    Same with an ENFP I know who became Muslim from being Christian. It isn't like she changed when she was a kid. It was in her late 20s. She feels 'naked' without her hijab (even though many progressively minded Muslim women don't wear them- in fact, it draws more attention to you to be white and wearing that sort of garb!). Anyway, she frowns upon people not part of her religion, and has absolutely no understanding for how anyone can believe what she doesn't believe, and that they are immoral, etc.
    Anyway, I hate to use religion as my example, but those are the first things that came to mind.
    Bonus question- if Fi greatly values logic in a Ti sort of way, does that make them NFP or NTP?
    Add: I mean people who use Fi.
    @Jack427 you do not use Fe. In fact, I think Fe is an INTJ fail most of the time.
    being wrong and occasionally having to reevaluate moral decisions is a small price to pay for the sense of integrity and strength of character that come with strong Fi. on the reverse end, most of the NTPs I know seem to be unsure about everything, yet criticize anyone who has an actual opinion. trust me, without Fi users, your civil rights would be much fewer and far between. respect for human life is a value in and of itself, and naturally present in most FPs. sometimes I feel like NTPs just want everyone to become apathetic, skeptics who don't believe anything and spend all day speculating endless possibilities with no decisions being made. irrational convictions and motivations are still motivations and have driven people to accomplish great things. rationality is a means to a goal, not the goal itself

    PS: religious extremism is a different story all together, and one just as frequently (in fact, a lot more so) practiced by NFJs, SFJs and STJs. it really is rarely practiced by FPs at all. what you're talking about pertains much more to Enneagram 1 than it does any cognitive function.
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  4. #64
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I don't see how it Fi sticks it head out enough to even notice it that often.

    I think INFPs are kind of global in their outlook.. they see many sides. I think they might even project sensitivities on to people when it isn't there (which would be going beyond simply understanding, I guess). It's only on the convictions that they deemed important when the whole black n white thing comes out. Things that they feel are violations on that very global scale, where they see it violates not only them, but something on a general humane level, as they see it. It's hardly petty individualism.

    ISFPs are kind of the same. I don't think they like vocalizing a lot of their opinions right away at least. They're comfort seekers.

    I could just be talking about Enneagram 9, but I don't think so.
    the plurality of IFPs are E9s. it's relevant even if you are talking only about type 9
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  5. #65
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    I'm very much inclined to agree with OA and Seymour. Being accommodating, understanding and open-minded is first and foremost in my mind when evaluating an issue. I wish to add to what they already said on how others can mistakenly conclude that Fi see things in black and white. I think some of what I describe is intertwined with Ne, so I will keep it specific to my approach, so as not to wrongly attribute certain aspects to all Fi-users.

    I form my evaluations internally and in the process explore many different aspects of an issue: the various arguments for and against, the (likely and known) feelings and intentions of the parties involved, other possible explanations that haven't been explored etc etc. Amongst all this complexity I try to reach a conclusion, albeit one with caveats that acknowledge the imperfect nature of it and the unfortunate drawbacks. In spite of these conflicting issues, I can come to believe very strongly in that conclusion because much thought has been put into it - and in certain circumstance I will become quite passionate in my expression of it.

    However, other people can't see this internal process, which can cause them to believe that it did not take place. In some cases, it may be that I haven't clearly conveyed the fact I have considered the various issues and perspectives involved well enough. But just as often (if not, more often) I explain all of my caveats and people ignore them, or perhaps believe them to be disingenuous, and then blame me for being heartless or disloyal or whatever feeling the issue at hand inspires. In fact what is happening is that they choose to see my decision in black and white terms and refuse to take into account the qualifications and sympathetic acknowledgments I raised.

    And as a disclaimer (and with full acknowledgement of the irony of adding one), I wish to emphasize that such situations as described above, are actually very rare. Mostly I am accused of being far too accommodating, tolerant, tentative, and even weird or sick for being inclined to defend the, supposedly, indefensible. However, eventually one must draw a line. I can strongly sympathise with a murderer and understand the reasons why he did it, but will still advocate that he be put away for a long time. This is what people seem have difficulty with; the fact that I can be so understanding, and yet so unforgiving at the same time. I suppose this is why they try to peg me as being one or the other in any given situation, when all I am doing is attempting to find the best possible solution among the many shades of grey.
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  6. #66
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    like all Judgment functions, Fi draws a line in a certain place. so yes, it is black and white - but so are all the other J functions. that's the whole point of them existing. after all, if we didn't draw judgment lines, we couldn't survive.

    the thing about Fi is it's a Judgment function maintained internally but applied to people externally - whereas Ti is applied externally to systems. so others can experience the results of Fi very strongly, since they often know it's being applied to them personally, but may not necessarily understand why it is the way it is or where it's coming from. and compare Fe, which uses existing information in the environment, rather than internal information, and as such works on the level of both people - "between" them - and can feel less alien and harsh (though, good god, can it be condescending). and i know that to many FJs and TPs Fe/Ti feels more comfortable, but to us it often feels manipulative - like something is being hidden from us.

    honestly though, your examples aren't particularly compelling. i follow the exact same belief pattern as you in regard to christianity. some is valuable; some is less so. this is not a Fi judgment. this is a stance many people in the world hold with many different belief sets and, frankly, is probably more environmentally ingrained than a result of cognitive functions. as far as i have seen, the people who tend to have opinions like that have been raised in families or in places with opinions like that. or they've had some major life-changing (usually traumatic) event during or after the course of which they attached themselves firmly to a certain belief set.

    i really don't think it has much to do with cognitive functions at all... i suspect you just have friends with strong religious opinions who happen to use Fi.

  7. #67
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    like all Judgment functions, Fi draws a line in a certain place. so yes, it is black and white - but so are all the other J functions. that's the whole point of them existing. after all, if we didn't draw judgment lines, we couldn't survive.

    the thing about Fi is it's a Judgment function maintained internally but applied to people externally - whereas Ti is applied externally to systems. so others can experience the results of Fi very strongly, since they often know it's being applied to them personally, but may not necessarily understand why it is the way it is or where it's coming from. and compare Fe, which uses existing information in the environment, rather than internal information, and as such works on the level of both people - "between" them - and can feel less alien and harsh (though, good god, can it be condescending). and i know that to many FJs and TPs Fe/Ti feels more comfortable, but to us it often feels manipulative - like something is being hidden from us.

    honestly though, your examples aren't particularly compelling. i follow the exact same belief pattern as you in regard to christianity. some is valuable; some is less so. this is not a Fi judgment. this is a stance many people in the world hold with many different belief sets and, frankly, is probably more environmentally ingrained than a result of cognitive functions. as far as i have seen, the people who tend to have opinions like that have been raised in families or in places with opinions like that. or they've had some major life-changing (usually traumatic) event during or after the course of which they attached themselves firmly to a certain belief set.

    i really don't think it has much to do with cognitive functions at all... i suspect you just have friends with strong religious opinions who happen to use Fi.
    I agree with everything you said.
    Strong judging functions may come off as "black and white" but the strength of the perceiving functions definitely help tone it down.

  8. #68
    Anew Leaf
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    I think we can actually agree on what you pointed out. I probably see strong personal convictions as "black and white". Whenever I hear an XXFP state their convictions, I feel like I am going to be judged if I don't agree with their values... like I'm a lesser person for it.
    That is a Fe take on a Fi matter.

    If you(general you) don't agree with me: I don't care.

    What I care about is people respecting the boundaries.

  9. #69
    Anew Leaf
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    I'm extremely curious- most everyone I know with Fi is incredibly black and white about their morals/values/beliefs- even when they can and will change them.

    Which I think is ridiculous. It is like they are correct until they are wrong, and then once they revise their morals, those[/I] beliefs and morals are absolutely correct and everyone else is wrong. So what is up with that?

    Example 1: I value Christian beliefs, and everything in the Bible is is absolute and not open to question. But maybe I disagree a little with this here, and a little with this there. But I am allowed to discount some of those beliefs because they don't make sense. But if anyone else does, they are going to hell, because I know what should be absolute. /brings down mighty scepter

    Why are people so pretentious as to decide that they get to decide what is right and wrong? Some things I can understand- killing babies is frowned upon by most people. But why do people get so high and mighty over certain things which many people feel are open to debates.

    For example, I know many people who have gone from atheist to Christian and it is like they can't fathom how anyone can not believe in God and how those people are going to hell. Seriously? All those years you were an atheist and then you decided, hey, this makes sense! and have no understanding?

    Same with an ENFP I know who became Muslim from being Christian. It isn't like she changed when she was a kid. It was in her late 20s. She feels 'naked' without her hijab (even though many progressively minded Muslim women don't wear them- in fact, it draws more attention to you to be white and wearing that sort of garb!). Anyway, she frowns upon people not part of her religion, and has absolutely no understanding for how anyone can believe what she doesn't believe, and that they are immoral, etc.

    Anyway, I hate to use religion as my example, but those are the first things that came to mind.

    Bonus question- if Fi greatly values logic in a Ti sort of way, does that make them NFP or NTP?

    Add: I mean people who use Fi.

    @Jack427 you do not use Fe. In fact, I think Fe is an INTJ fail most of the time.
    You could make this exact same case for heavy Ti users as well. Ti is the definition of black and white .

  10. #70
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    That is a Fe take on a Fi matter.

    If you(general you) don't agree with me: I don't care.

    What I care about is people respecting the boundaries.
    Hah! So simple but probably true.

    EDIT: My mom and I disagree on many of our values but we still get along great in all honesty so that makes sense.

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