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  1. #51
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    I guess the problem with all functions-related (Fe=manipulative and etc) discussions is bad sampling.
    Stupidity is pretty common. Thing is, when people are quite different from us in mbti terms, what stands out is the stupid use of the function, rather than the stupidity itself.
    Really? When does this happen?
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  2. #52
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    I say that it's "pseudoscience" because of the unreliability of the system. There is no way I can prove or disprove anything about type or cognitive functions other than the weak evidence of anecdotes and the comparisons in them... that's not saying much. Even though there are descriptions of the cognitive functions and such, I can think of many exceptions to the rule regarding some portions of the description because there so many different aspects of an individual that MBTI can't address. In the end, I really do like IFPs. I was just throwing out my ideas and anecdotes about the ones I know.
    How can you even classify an individual as a type if the definitions have no bearing?

    This is like saying Monopoly isn't real, so you can break its rules & still play it. True, it is not "real", but it is defined by its rules & structure, so if you break them, then you're not playing Monopoly anymore. You've just invented a new game with different criteria.

    Type is not about reality. It's a system to classify & describe. If you ignore its structure, then you're not working within its system anymore & the terminology becomes useless.

    I don't think the types are strictly defined so that you could call them rules; they are vague outlines & not rigid dictates. However, to insist a type in general is characterized by a trait that contradicts its description as a whole becomes so arbitrary that it makes typology itself pointless. Fi means nothing if anyone can decide it means ANYTHING.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flux View Post
    But, introverted feeling can be seen as black and white. The way I understand introverted feeling is that it makes decisions in a way that are congruent with the person's chosen identity or some ideal they have. Also, feeling judgments in general, place importance on things. So, things could congruent/in-congruent or important/not important or black/white or any other dichotomy.
    This is a poor understanding of valuation though. Valuation is not necessarily about strict good & bad. More often than not, it's a scale.

    - Something is more important/better than something else, but less important/worse than yet another thing. This involves context, comparison, and degrees, which is not black & white.

    - Something is important to me/this group, but not necessarily to others. This means that opposing views are not necessarily wrong/bad. There is no black & white dichotomy.

    - Something is important/good within this context & with these supporting details, but not within every context or when these details are absent. Again, this is no rigid valuation.

    - In regards to ideals, Fi is about basic, fundamental concepts of what is good/significant/necessary in relation to being human, which can be fulfilled in a multitude of ways. This is not black & white because it does not say "X is good & everything else is bad". Instead, the process gauges things as to how well it lives up to an ideal, which is a model, not a strict standard. The closer it is to the ideal the better it is, the farther it is, the worse. Again, that is a scale accounting for context & differing variables, and using degrees, not black & white categories of good/bad.

    - Having a strong opinion & disagreeing with someone is not black & white thinking. You may hold a strong view & not think all contradicting ones are "wrong". You may disagree with someone, but that doesn't mean you think only your view is right.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  3. #53
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    How can you even classify an individual as a type if the definitions have no bearing?

    This is like saying Monopoly isn't real, so you can break its rules & still play it. True, it is not "real", but it is defined by its rules & structure, so if you break them, then you're not playing Monopoly anymore. You've just invented a new game with different criteria.

    Type is not about reality. It's a system to classify & describe. If you ignore its structure, then you're not working within its system anymore & the terminology becomes useless.

    I don't think the types are strictly defined so that you could call them rules; they are vague outlines & not rigid dictates. However, to insist a type in general is characterized by a trait that contradicts its description as a whole becomes so arbitrary that it makes typology itself pointless. Fi means nothing if anyone can decide it means ANYTHING.
    My view completely aligns with @Seymour's post. I see this as "black and white" if I don't agree with how you see and VALUE FI. "Fi is either laidback and easygoing or black and white.... it can't be both" is how I am reading your argument. I agree with most of what you have been going on about.... but in certain instances, it can be rather black and white... it's a judging function after all.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    I wasn't intending that to come off like that- Jack and I have been talking and it seems judgmental to say something like that out of context.

    You wouldn't be the first to say: "You don't use X."

    There's been many a member who chased others around the forum telling them what function(s) "they don't use."
    The point is, no one knows for certain what people are "using."

  5. #55
    You're fired. Lol. Antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    You wouldn't be the first to say: "You don't use X."

    There's been many a member who chased others around the forum telling them what function(s) "they don't use."
    The point is, no one knows for certain what people are "using."
    I understand. I have seen it on the forum. I try to not be one of those people- but Jack really doesn't seem to like that function.

    Functions are like drugs. Everyone judges what you are using.
    Excuse me, but does this smell like chloroform to you?

    Always reserve the right to become smarter at a future point in time, for only a fool limits themselves to all they knew in the past. -Alex

  6. #56
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    I try to not be one of those people- but Jack really doesn't seem to like that function.
    The only thing I know about him is he sent me an obnoxious rep comment for posting Alec Baldwin's "I am God" speech from the movie, Malice.

    Hey Jack - get a sense of humor.

  7. #57
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Despite the squishiness of the MBTI, one can correlate type to various other factors to determine the tendencies of various types. Then one can use that information to determine the qualities of the various functions.

    For example, in the MBTI Step III correlations, INFP ranked highest in flexibility (reacting adaptively to changing circumstance) of all the types, ISFPs ranked fourth. INFPs were the third from the bottom in stubbornness (tendency to resist changing one's view or course of action, regardless of emerging new information or the objection of others), while ISFPs were in the middle. Top four for stubbornness were ISTP, ESTP, ENTP and INTP. INFPs also came in dead last in self focus (tendency to put one's own interests ahead of others and view things primarily in terms of impact on oneself), while ISFPs again fell in the middle.

    On the negative side, INFPs and ISFPs did rank fourth and third in defensiveness (feeling that world does not think well of one, people will be hostile, and one must guard against such reactions, and to be hypersensitive to negative feedback), despite being high and average in appreciativeness, respectively.

    So, Fi-doms generally seem to be flexible and not particularly stubborn (if fairly defensive). That doesn't sound like we are particularly prone to black and white thinking over all, but we can be misconstrued as being so.

  8. #58
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    My view completely aligns with @Seymour's post. See, this is "black and white" if I don't agree with how you see and VALUE FI.
    This is petty & unnecessary. Disagreeing with one opinion does not mean my reasoning is black & white. It does not mean I think all differing views are automatically wrong, nor that I am using only two opposing categories to judge things without consideration for details or context.

    I agree with Seymour also (who interestingly, agreed with me), but I don't think he is describing "black & white" thinking as a defining characteristic of IFPs. I MYSELF brought up that Fi types can sometimes shut down & refuse to discuss a sensitive matter, but this does not mean they judge most things or even anything in strict black & white terms. There's a huge difference between the way an IFP valuates & their act of withdrawal when they feel criticized or frustrated. One is a rational judging process & the other an emotional defense mechanism. There's also a difference between having a strong opinion & disagreeing with someone vs. dismissing all opposing views as wrong. There's an "I disagree with you, but can see where you are coming from" attitude, or an "I disagree with you, but allow for the idea that I could be wrong also", or an "I disagree with you, but this other differing view seems reasonable to me", or an "I disagree in general but can acknowledge exceptions", etc. I'd put myself in the last category in this case, as I don't hold any extreme view that Fi never takes an "either/or" stance in judgments, but I also don't think it's defined by "black & white" thinking.

    edit: I see you edited your post while I was responding. I disagree with your categorization of judging being intrinsically black & white.

    "Fi is either laidback and easygoing or black and white.... it can't be both" is how I am reading your argument.
    Unless you didn't read my entire posts, then I can't see how you formed this impression.
    I don't think it's both - I think it's neither. I think you're confusing a strong opinion for black & white categorization, which are not the same thing. An easy-going demeanor is also not the same as having no opinion.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    This is a poor understanding of valuation though. Valuation is not necessarily about strict good & bad. More often than not, it's a scale.

    - Something is more important/better than something else, but less important/worse than yet another thing. This involves context, comparison, and degrees, which is not black & white.

    - Something is important to me/this group, but not necessarily to others. This means that opposing views are not necessarily wrong/bad. There is no black & white dichotomy.

    - Something is important/good within this context & with these supporting details, but not within every context or when these details are absent. Again, this is no rigid valuation.

    - In regards to ideals, Fi is about basic, fundamental concepts of what is good/significant/necessary in relation to being human, which can be fulfilled in a multitude of ways. This is not black & white because it does not say "X is good & everything else is bad". Instead, the process gauges things as to how well it lives up to an ideal, which is a model, not a strict standard. The closer it is to the ideal the better it is, the farther it is, the worse. Again, that is a scale accounting for context & differing variables, and using degrees, not black & white categories of good/bad.

    - Having a strong opinion & disagreeing with someone is not black & white thinking. You may hold a strong view & not think all contradicting ones are "wrong". You may disagree with someone, but that doesn't mean you think only your view is right.
    I actually think we agree on this. I never said anything about something's value being absolute. Things are valued entirely based on the situation and the person valuing, it's all subjective.

    I guess what I was saying is that, in regards to feeling, when comparing two things one is always closer to one side of the scale while the other thing is closer to the opposite side. But, its all relative and situational because like you said the value of something depends on the values of the person and the options available. Hmm, it seems what I was trying to say was that introverted feeling can appear black and white. Somehow I feel like I am not expressing myself clearly enough.

  10. #60
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flux View Post
    I actually think we agree on this. I never said anything about something's value being absolute. Things are valued entirely based on the situation and the person valuing, it's all subjective.

    I guess what I was saying is that, in regards to feeling, when comparing two things one is always closer to one side of the scale while the other thing is closer to the opposite side. But, its all relative and situational because like you said the value of something depends on the values of the person and the options available. Hmm, it seems what I was trying to say was that introverted feeling can appear black and white. Somehow I feel like I am not expressing myself clearly enough.
    No, we do not disagree then. I just think the interpretation of an appearance has as much to do with the person looking as the one appearing....
    It almost never fails that this kind of interpretation of Fi in a thread is initiated by an ENTP, who are good at getting other people on their bandwagons of ideas & enjoy stirring up controversy (of course, that's how ENTPs appear to me). In these cases, it seems to me there's often a projection of attitudes onto the IFPs, personal bias & a lot of assumptions, massive & sweeping generalizations based solely on a few anecdotes, and a conclusion presented as a question meant to influence others views.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

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