User Tag List

First 34567 Last

Results 41 to 50 of 103

  1. #41
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    That's just weird though.

    EPs and IPs are often open and perceiving types. Fi or not. External variables matter even more than otherwise.
    The people can be very open, yes. Fi itself isn't, though. Ne might be able to maneuver external variables around enough for the value judgment to be different, but only because Fi perceives it as a separate issue.

  2. #42
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEI Ni
    Posts
    7,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    It's the same thing as the "Fe is fake" argument, lol. It's all about anecdotes and pseudoscience research. There isn't much to scientifically prove things with MBTI. I will admit to my bias. Several Fi users in my life came off as really "black and white" with their values.
    What is "pseudoscience" in this context though? The entire Jungian/MBTI personality typology is usually called that, so backing up an assertion about Fe or Fi (or whatever) with Jungian/MBTI theory is not a poor argument because it goes to the source. The very definition of Fe has a description of someone who can appear "fake" (although I still would not use that phrasing, because I don't think it's really accurate of what is going on in their head).

    In the Fi description, there is described a person who does not seek to sway or affect others, a person who expresses feelings indirectly, if at all. The most you'll see of their Fi is an appearance of indifference, a defense in response to a violation, and an indirect influence through how they choose to personally live. This does not suggest a person is using a black & white valuation system, nor that they are insistent on their one way or very vocal about their beliefs.

    Here, I am, in response to what I see as a violation (or misunderstanding of my type), open to discussing this view, open to hearing counter-arguments to my own, and open to acknowledging points where they are made. How is this remotely black & white? I would just dismiss it without consideration if I thought that way. Instead, I chose to give it enough value to address it, to validate it as something worth considering, even though it stands in contrast to my own view (which is not insisting Fi-dom are never stubbornly closed-minded, just not exceptionally so, not in any "trademark" fashion).
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  3. #43
    You're fired. Lol. Antimony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Enneagram
    8w7 sx/sp
    Socionics
    ????
    Posts
    3,437

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    "You do not use Fe."

    Apparently, type is irrelevant when it comes to posting in black and white absolutes.
    We're all hypocrites here.
    Excuse me, but does this smell like chloroform to you?

    Always reserve the right to become smarter at a future point in time, for only a fool limits themselves to all they knew in the past. -Alex

  4. #44
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    12,443

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    We're all hypocrites here.
    You actually scored some points for saying that.

  5. #45
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/so
    Posts
    1,565

    Default

    So I'm generally in line with OA regarding Fi (especially dom-Fi) being open to nuance and different views. We tend, on the whole, to be willing to entertain ideas even when they differ from our own.

    Still, I can see a few ways that we could come off as black and white:

    • Adversarial debating styles (which many enjoy) can easily trigger our shutting down. Playing devil's advocate for fun can elicit a similar reaction.
    • If a core value—that is, a belief that we identify with—is being attacked, we tend to feel personally attacked. Those few central beliefs not open to discussion (especially hostile discussion).
    • The process of how Fi evaluates things is difficult to perceive, much less verbalize, so it's often difficult to explain how one reached a conclusion. This can come across as being close-minded in an "I know what I know" kind of way.
    • Nardi notes that Fi-doms do eventually make up their minds, and they may stop listening at that point (despite having open-mindedly listened longer than most). Once we've thought through something deeply, we can be difficult to budge.

    I also like OA's point about how many people experiencing it in an inferior form affects how it gets perceived. My internal perception of it is very different than some of the descriptions I've seen here (intolerant, overly reactive, emo, emotionally spewing, etc). The Fi-doms I know tend to be emotionally understated except with those they know well. If anything they normally come across as too easy going and accommodating, which can be a problem in business situations.

  6. #46
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Posts
    5,931

    Default

    I guess the problem with all functions-related (Fe=manipulative and etc) discussions is bad sampling.
    Stupidity is pretty common. Thing is, when people are quite different from us in mbti terms, what stands out is the stupid use of the function, rather than the stupidity itself.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  7. #47
    Glycerine
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    What is "pseudoscience" in this context though? The entire Jungian/MBTI personality typology is usually called that, so backing up an assertion about Fe or Fi (or whatever) with Jungian/MBTI theory is not a poor argument because it goes to the source. The very definition of Fe has a description of someone who can appear "fake" (although I still would not use that phrasing, because I don't think it's really accurate of what is going on in their head).

    In the Fi description, there is described a person who does not seek to sway or affect others, a person who expresses feelings indirectly, if at all. The most you'll see of their Fi is an appearance of indifference, a defense in response to a violation, and an indirect influence through how they choose to personally live. This does not suggest a person is using a black & white valuation system, nor that they are insistent on their one way or very vocal about their beliefs.

    Here, I am, in response to what I see as a violation (or misunderstanding of my type), open to discussing this view, open to hearing counter-arguments to my own, and open to acknowledging points where they are made. How is this remotely black & white? I would just dismiss it without consideration if I thought that way. Instead, I chose to give it enough value to address it, to validate it as something worth considering, even though it stands in contrast to my own view (which is not insisting Fi-dom are never stubbornly closed-minded, just not exceptionally so, not in any "trademark" fashion).
    I say that it's "pseudoscience" because of the unreliability of the system. There is no way I can prove or disprove anything about type or cognitive functions other than the weak evidence of anecdotes and the comparisons in them... that's not saying much. Even though there are descriptions of the cognitive functions and such, I can think of many exceptions to the rule regarding some portions of the description because there so many different aspects of an individual that MBTI can't address. In the end, I really do like IFPs. I was just throwing out my ideas and anecdotes about the ones I know.

    EDIT: I was close to these IFPs so that may have made a difference on how they expressed things to me.

  8. #48
    You're fired. Lol. Antimony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Enneagram
    8w7 sx/sp
    Socionics
    ????
    Posts
    3,437

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    You actually scored some points for saying that.
    /high fives self

    I wasn't intending that to come off like that- Jack and I have been talking and it seems judgmental to say something like that out of context.
    Excuse me, but does this smell like chloroform to you?

    Always reserve the right to become smarter at a future point in time, for only a fool limits themselves to all they knew in the past. -Alex

  9. #49
    Glycerine
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    So I'm generally in line with OA regarding Fi (especially dom-Fi) being open to nuance and different views. We tend, on the whole, to be willing to entertain ideas even when they differ from our own.

    Still, I can see a few ways that we could come off as black and white:

    • Adversarial debating styles (which many enjoy) can easily trigger our shutting down. Playing devil's advocate for fun can elicit a similar reaction.
    • If a core value—that is, a belief that we identify with—is being attacked, we tend to feel personally attacked. Those few central beliefs not open to discussion (especially hostile discussion).
    • The process of how Fi evaluates things is difficult to perceive, much less verbalize, so it's often difficult to explain how one reached a conclusion. This can come across as being close-minded in an "I know what I know" kind of way.
    • Nardi notes that Fi-doms do eventually make up their minds, and they may stop listening at that point (despite having open-mindedly listened longer than most). Once we've thought through something deeply, we can be difficult to budge.

    I also like OA's point about how many people experiencing it in an inferior form affects how it gets perceived. My internal perception of it is very different than some of the descriptions I've seen here (intolerant, overly reactive, emo, emotionally spewing, etc). The Fi-doms I know tend to be emotionally understated except with those they know well. If anything they normally come across as too easy going and accommodating, which can be a problem in business situations.
    Thank you for this post. The bolded is what I have noticed from my experiences.

  10. #50

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    I guess the problem with all functions-related (Fe=manipulative and etc) discussions is bad sampling.
    Stupidity is pretty common. Thing is, when people are quite different from us in mbti terms, what stands out is the stupid use of the function, rather than the stupidity itself.
    I agree, you can't hold unhealthy use of a function against an entire type when the person isn't developed in a healthy way.

    But, introverted feeling can be seen as black and white. The way I understand introverted feeling is that it makes decisions in a way that are congruent with the person's chosen identity or some ideal they have. Also, feeling judgments in general, place importance on things. So, things could congruent/in-congruent or important/not important or black/white or any other dichotomy.

Similar Threads

  1. Modern movies that rip of earlier better black and white films
    By Survive & Stay Free in forum Arts & Entertainment
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 05-04-2013, 02:56 AM
  2. Good black and white films
    By Survive & Stay Free in forum Arts & Entertainment
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 09-18-2012, 06:16 AM
  3. Black and White and Weird All Over
    By BlueSprout in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01-27-2010, 01:47 AM
  4. ENTPs do you relate: black and white vision and dislike fuzziness
    By LeonardoLestat in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: 02-27-2009, 12:55 AM
  5. White, gray, black and colorless
    By Virtual ghost in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 10-06-2008, 07:44 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO