Fi Black and White?

[Lady_X]

about a lot of thing yes i am open and very changeable...but when it comes to basic humanity and how others ought to be treated...no...i feel very clear and unchangeable there.

 

[KDude]

about a lot of thing yes i am open and very changeable...but when it comes to basic humanity and how others ought to be treated...no...i feel very clear and unchangeable there.

OK, that makes sense.

But see, how often are you banging heads with someone over those things? You're hardly someone where the first thought that came to my mind was how black and white you were on issues.

 

[EJCC]

just read this and thought i'd share...probably more flowery than you care to read...and i'm not religious myself...but...neither is the guy who wrote it.
http://www.danoah.com/2011/11/im-christian-unless-youre-gay.html

i personally think it can feel very black and white to the person with the conviction. i try to be humble enough to realize people come to their own conclusions based on their own very personal life experiences. it's important i think to allow others the freedom to form their own thoughts and not judge or look down upon them when they differ from your own...but...if you try to debate me on say...the death penalty i'd likely come off very black and white about it because to me it is...killing someone is murder...and one doesn't make the other right....so...i feel very black and white about it but i get that others with other life experiences have come to their own conclusions...and i can respect that...but don't debate me on it.

I relate to this 100%.

(And that article was wonderful. )

 

[Lady_X]

i'm not very often...but i do take issue with people being shitty to others and will say so but otherwise yeah...i'm pretty go with the flow and like to look at things from all sides and like to take in all the information and judge things purely based on individual circumstances.

i think thats probably all it is...when people see a fi user being all black and white about something you likely struck a nerve...or stepped on one of their core values.

 

[KDude]

when people see a fi user being all black and white about something you likely struck a nerve...or stepped on one of their core values.

Exactly.

And they didn't their get way that one time, and then make a big issue about it. Waaah.

 

[Lady_X]

hahaha!

 

[Glycerine]

Strong convictions come off black and white...and I have seen that tendency with Fi users, especially INFPs. Saying that, it's common among people in general.

Me: I'm agnostic.
Person 2: That's a weak stance. You should either be religious or atheist because you will have some conviction in what you believe in.

 

[freeeekyyy]

That's just weird though.

EPs and IPs are often open and perceiving types. Fi or not. External variables matter even more than otherwise.

But they matter because of Pe, not Ji in itself.

 

[OrangeAppled]

I as an INFP cannot relate to that whole stuff at all. I think I am more able to differentiate about positions between black and white than most people I know. For some people, when someone else has done something evil, they cannot view that person anymore rationally, everything they ever did is totally evil and just trying to seperate individual traits or deeds of these people makes you look already crazy to them (you can see that often in politics for example). I don't have such issues. I can see that a person has done something wrong, but that doesn't mean that everything else this person did or is doing is now to be discarded as well.

And in general, I can very well understand that other people see things differently than me. Generally I follow a live and let live approach. Of course, if a person has important views which are totally different from mine, we might maybe not become best friends, but I don't force things on other people or attack them or so. Usually it is me who sees himself confronted though by other types of people who try to force things on me, and that can annoy me.

I relate to this. I don't relate to the OP and I've yet to hear from people IRL that I come off that way.

I think people pin BS on xxFPs because they don't understand the function and they project their own shadow attitudes onto a thinking that is largely foreign to them.

Also consider: if an ExFP is displaying such an attitude, then why assume it stems from Fi? To have contradicting views & to openly express views on touchy matters seems waaaaaay more Pe or Pi to me than Fi, which tends to only be expressed enough to indicate there has been a violation & forms values using lines of reasoning. Not all personal beliefs are Fi valuations; Fi is just a process of thinking that some prefer when valuating. Any type can have personal beliefs that are not formed using Fi thinking. P-doms can form views based on impressions without having evaluated it via a rational argument. It can appear as an "it is what it is" attitude because they "see" it so clearly. This will look like a "value" in layman's terms, but it's not a valuation in a technical sense. IMO, it's harder to reason with such people than with a J-dom, because they prefer whole impressions over lines of reasoning (ie. why Ni-dom have a rep for being stubborn). I've seen this waaaay more with P-dom: "This is true because I see it that way & it's obvious!". They offer no argument for their view...

I don't see how it Fi sticks it head out enough to even notice it that often.

I think INFPs are kind of global in their outlook.. they see many sides. I think they might even project sensitivities on to people when it isn't there (which would be going beyond simply understanding, I guess). It's only on the convictions that they deemed important when the whole black n white thing comes out. Things that they feel are violations on that very global scale, where they see it violates not only them, but something on a general humane level, as they see it. It's hardly petty individualism.

Agreed, but I still don't even think it's "black & white" when it comes out. It's contextual and nuanced, which is hardly black & white, but rather containing many details & shades of meaning (and if those were to change, so would the stance).

One way I can see an IFP coming off "black & white" is if they feel the other person is attacking them & they've SHUT DOWN in response. It's not that their argument or thinking is black & white, but that they don't feel the other person is even listening to them or giving them a fair chance, so they stop explaining it. They let the person think what they want, as they've already jumped to a conclusion anyway. I've seen other IFPs do this, but to interpret it as a whole "black & white" mindset seems, well, black & white! The context would show why such a person is putting a wall up, unless you're completely dense & prefer jumping to conclusions over actually understanding someone.

People seem to forget that xxFPs are generally described as diplomatic, and that we're also pegged as easy-going & accommodating. It's funny how in one breath a person says xxFPs are stubborn & black & white, and in the next, they'll say we can't make a decision & are too nice in a weak way; it's whatever suits their argument of the moment, I suppose....

It reminds me of what Lenore Thompson said about Fi; basically, so many people use it in an inferior form that they invalidate it as sentimental, emotional, weak, simplistic, etc. This is because they experience it that way in their own mind, not because that's how it works when it's a dominant mindset. If I were to paint other functions based on how I experience them, then they'd look silly & childish also.

 

[KDude]

But they matter because of Pe, not Ji in itself.

Fair enough.. but wouldn't you agree that they work in tandem.. or are informed from the other?

I don't even want to ask that, because I know you would.

 

[Glycerine]

People seem to forget that xxFPs are generally described as diplomatic, and that we're also pegged as easy-going & accommodating. It's funny how in one breath a person says xxFPs are stubborn & black & white, and in the next, they'll say we can't make a decision & are too nice in a weak way; it's whatever suits their argument of the moment, I suppose.....

They typically are but when it comes to their values, they can come off very black and white. It can be seen in a lot of threads where several Fi users are arguing over completely different value sets. That's true of a lot of folks though.

 

[freeeekyyy]

Fair enough.. but wouldn't you agree that they work in tandem.. or are informed from the other?

I don't even want to ask that, because I know you would.

I do, yes. But this thread is about Fi, not Fi and the other functions that make up a given personality.

IFPs, and ITPs for that matter, can be pretty closed-minded sometimes. EPs aren't so bad. (and are probably more open than IPs, IJs or EJs)

 

[OrangeAppled]

They typically are but when it comes to their values, they can come off very black and white. That's true of a lot of folks though.

Is it anything to do with Fi then or is this simply a matter of how people react when their values are questioned?

I don't think IFPs come off any more black & white than any other person, and I'd argue (well I did already somewhat) that they may comes off LESS SO than the average person.

There's even that Dario Nardi study showing IFPs listen the most intently to others, not creating a rebuttal mentally when someone else is speaking, but truly processing what that other person is saying. Sure, they may then go on to disagree, but the other person is given a fair chance. Is that a black and white way of thinking or someone who is open & seriously considers other viewpoints? Guess which type stops listening to others very quickly to determine "relevancy"? The Ti types....funny how it's often ENTPs making this accusation about Fi stubbornness; might they be projecting their own attitude?

Again, associations with IFPs being accommodating, easy-going, "live and let live" are HEAVY.

 

[KDude]

IFPs, and ITPs for that matter, can be pretty closed-minded sometimes. EPs aren't so bad. (and are probably more open than IPs, IJs or EJs)

I suppose I agree with that too..

As long as we don't mistake close minded with being outright vocal about it. I don't think it's common to see any with authoritarian personalities, where expressing their views can be seen as part of their social style. In which case, it doesn't matter what they think. If people are bothered by what they think, then that would be their problem.

Every so often a situation could come up where the IP is pushed into being more vocal, and remains rigid about something, but I think more than half of the time, it's to due to someone meddling in the first place.

 

[Glycerine]

Is it anything to do with Fi then or is this simply a matter of how people react when their values are questioned?

I don't think IFPs come off any more black & white than any other person, and I'd argue (well I did already somewhat) that they may comes off LESS SO than the average person.

There's even that Dario Nardi study showing IFPs listen the most intently to others, not creating a rebuttal mentally when someone else is speaking, but truly processing what that other person is saying. Sure, they may then go on to disagree, but the other person is given a fair chance. Is that a black and white way of thinking or someone who is open & seriously considers other viewpoints? Guess which type stops listening to others very quickly to determine "relevancy"? The Ti types....funny how it's often ENTPs making this accusation about Fi stubbornness; might they be projecting their own attitude?

Again, associations with IFPs being accommodating, easy-going, "live and let live" are HEAVY.

Like I said, it really depends on what it is. I would argue that in general IFPs come off more black and white than the average person when their values are questioned but are very open and easy going most of the time. That's the nature of Fi because the values are from within and static...

 

[freeeekyyy]

I suppose I agree with that too..

As long as we don't mistake close minded with being outright vocal about it. I don't think it's common to see any with authoritarian personalities, where expressing their views can be seen as part of their social style. In which case, it doesn't matter what they think. If people are bothered by what they think, then that would be their problem.

Every so often a situation could come up where the IP is pushed into being more vocal, and remains rigid about something, but I think more than half of the time, it's to due to someone meddling in the first place.

Yeah, that sounds about right to me.

 

[OrangeAppled]

Like I said, it really depends on what it is. I would argue that in general IFPs come off more black and white than the average person when their values are questioned but are very open and easy going most of the time. That's the nature of Fi because the values are from within and static...

See, this statement you make seems more black & white to me because it has no support or explanation other than "this is what I've personally seen & how I interpret it", and there's a lack of effort to consider arguments made in contrast to it.

This is mainly what has been offered in this thread in support of the OP: "I've tagged someone an Fi type, and they display behavior I interpret as black & white, so therefore Fi is black & white". This seems a very faulty argument to me for numerous reasons, mainly because there's nothing to connect the attitude to Fi nor any explanation of why Fi as a mindset would work this way or how it works so that it appears that way.

I'm waiting for someone to provide an actual argument on how & why Fi would work as a black & white way of classifying value when making judgments, other than "my highly questionable anecdotal experience & biased impression says so".

 

[Glycerine]

See, this statement you make seems more black & white to me because it has no support or explanation other than "this is what I've personally seen & how I interpret it", and there's a lack of effort to consider arguments made in contrast to it.

This is mainly what has been offered in this thread in support of the OP: "I've tagged someone an Fi type, and they display behavior I interpret as black & white, so therefore Fi is black & white". This seems a very faulty argument to me for numerous reasons, mainly because there's nothing to connect the attitude to Fi nor any explanation of why Fi as a mindset would work this way or how it works so that it appears that way.

I'm waiting for someone to provide an actual argument on how & why Fi would work as a black & white way of classifying value when making judgments, other than "my highly questionable anecdotal experience & biased impression says so".

It's the same thing as the "Fe is fake" argument, lol. It's all about anecdotes and pseudoscience research. There isn't much to scientifically prove things with MBTI. I will admit to my bias. Several Fi users in my life came off as really "black and white" with their values because they are static.

 

[Jaguar]

black and white about beliefs-

[MENTION=14530]Jack427[/MENTION] you do not use Fe.

"You do not use Fe."

Apparently, type is irrelevant when it comes to posting in black and white absolutes.

 

[The Outsider]

Perhaps the black-and-whiteness may not be exactly genuine, some people just choose to take a stronger position on things, whether for the sake of argumentation or just a general stance that they integrate into their persona. Either way, the problem lying with how they present themselves rather than in cognitive dissonance.