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  1. #91
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    My Fe reaction is usually: why should I have to adhere to YOUR personal values when you're imposing on my personal liberty to do what I want? What gives you the right to impose your values onto me? That's where the conflict seems to lie with me at least (HAH, that seems to be the huge disconnect with the judging functions... "don't impose on me within this set of parameters"). I used to get into many conflicts over this type of thing but I just go along with anything the person wants me to do if it's more important to them.
    who is imposing on your personal liberty in this scenario?
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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    who is imposing on your personal liberty in this scenario?
    If it's a value I don't share and don't really consider important and the other person tells me off about it, I see it as my personal liberty being imposed upon. I guess I see it as the other side of the coin (I don't think Skylights is wrong but it just made me think of that).

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    If it's a value I don't share and don't really consider important and the other person tells me off about it, I see it as my personal liberty being imposed upon. I guess I see it as the other side of the coin (I don't think Skylights is wrong but it just made me think of that).
    Welcome to how Fi feels constantly.

  4. #94
    Senior Member chris1207's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    I'm extremely curious- most everyone I know with Fi is incredibly black and white about their morals/values/beliefs- even when they can and will change them.

    Which I think is ridiculous. It is like they are correct until they are wrong, and then once they revise their morals, those[/I] beliefs and morals are absolutely correct and everyone else is wrong. So what is up with that?

    Example 1: I value Christian beliefs, and everything in the Bible is is absolute and not open to question. But maybe I disagree a little with this here, and a little with this there. But I am allowed to discount some of those beliefs because they don't make sense. But if anyone else does, they are going to hell, because I know what should be absolute. /brings down mighty scepter

    Why are people so pretentious as to decide that they get to decide what is right and wrong? Some things I can understand- killing babies is frowned upon by most people. But why do people get so high and mighty over certain things which many people feel are open to debates.

    For example, I know many people who have gone from atheist to Christian and it is like they can't fathom how anyone can not believe in God and how those people are going to hell. Seriously? All those years you were an atheist and then you decided, hey, this makes sense! and have no understanding?

    Same with an ENFP I know who became Muslim from being Christian. It isn't like she changed when she was a kid. It was in her late 20s. She feels 'naked' without her hijab (even though many progressively minded Muslim women don't wear them- in fact, it draws more attention to you to be white and wearing that sort of garb!). Anyway, she frowns upon people not part of her religion, and has absolutely no understanding for how anyone can believe what she doesn't believe, and that they are immoral, etc.

    Anyway, I hate to use religion as my example, but those are the first things that came to mind.

    Bonus question- if Fi greatly values logic in a Ti sort of way, does that make them NFP or NTP?

    Add: I mean people who use Fi.

    @Jack427 you do not use Fe. In fact, I think Fe is an INTJ fail most of the time.
    Fi is dichotomous and even binary much like Ti. Unlike Ti, Fi focuses on (emotional) good vs. bad, whereas Ti focuses on true vs false. The reason these people are shallow is probably because they are extraverts who don't develop their introverted cognitive functions (i.e. EXFP's.) I highly doubt that an IXFP would have such shallow believes, given that Fi is their primary cognitive function. The people that you are referring to are in an immature dominant/tertiary loop. When they do find some new belief to latch on to, they clutch onto it like a person clutching to flotsam in the middle of the ocean to survive. Maybe one day they'll become learn to introspect.

    One thing to consider: Perhaps these individuals simply have trouble expressing their believes and communicating them in a complex way to you. That's something that's true of all introverted cognitive functions, but most especially of Ni and, perhaps also, Fi. Being an ENTP, you don't understand the world through Fi (I don't either.) That makes communication of those beliefs even more difficult.

    Also, freeeekyyy is wrong. Te isn't black and white. Te focuses on logical impact and the way that logical element come together in an externalized array. It's shallow in it's substance but very wide in its berth of rationale.
    "... you think deeply about stuff [that] nobody cares about and hardly anybody can understand you." ~ Peguy talking about Ni users. So true.

  5. #95
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris1207 View Post
    Also, freeeekyyy is wrong. Te isn't black and white. Te focuses on logical impact and the way that logical element come together in an externalized array. It's shallow in it's substance but very wide in its berth of rationale.
    You wouldn't call a universally applied logic system black & white? It could also be referred to as "true & false," "A & B," "On & Off," etc, it all means the same thing. Something cannot be in conflict with itself.

    It's not like I'm attacking Te in any way. I use Te, and value it very much. But Te is all about categories. It lives for them, much like Fe.
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  6. #96
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    My Fe reaction is usually: why should I have to adhere to YOUR personal values when you're imposing on my personal liberty to do what I want? What gives you the right to impose your values onto me? That's where the conflict seems to lie with me at least (HAH, that seems to be the huge disconnect with the judging functions... "don't impose on me within this set of parameters"). I used to get into many conflicts over this type of thing but I just go along with anything the person wants me to do if it's more important to them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    If it's a value I don't share and don't really consider important and the other person tells me off about it, I see it as my personal liberty being imposed upon. I guess I see it as the other side of the coin (I don't think Skylights is wrong but it just made me think of that).
    but that's kind of funny, because if a Fi person is telling you off for something, it's almost guaranteed that it's because you've infringed upon their space. so... it's like... you're saying they're stepping on your toes for calling you out on you stepping on their toes.

    which is legit, of course, since they are stepping on you, but maybe valuable to consider how you might be infringing upon them before you blame them solely for the incident?

    that's definitely true for myself and the Fe doms i know. we have different perspectives on things, and when we blame each other it tends to be a disconnect in reasoning. we have to figure out how we've hurt the other person, reciprocally, to understand the mechanics of the whole situation...

  7. #97
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    I'm extremely curious- most everyone I know with Fi is incredibly black and white about their morals/values/beliefs- even when they can and will change them.

    Which I think is ridiculous. It is like they are correct until they are wrong, and then once they revise their morals, those[/I] beliefs and morals are absolutely correct and everyone else is wrong. So what is up with that?
    Feeling in itself sees the world in black-and-white terms expressed as absolutes.

    "Why don't you EVER open the door! You ALWAYS do that to me!"

    Anybody who thinks that this is oversimplified needs to get off their computers and get out and see the world as it is, and listen to people in their moments of greatest spontaneity.

    Fi speaks only to personal values, and so Fi people will see values in black-and-white subjective terms. One of my best friends growing up was a tested INFP who used to drive me nuts with his constant but gentle [edit - a better term would be "snide"] moral accusations. His issue was not so much a lack of objectivity, but a confusion between the subjective and objective realms, believing that anything in his subjective reality represents objective truth. He is "right" and everybody else is "wrong." "The truth is, there is no truth," he told me once; my response was, "Is that the truth?" His only response was a smirk as if to say my own logic had defeated me. Naturally, his superior values defeated my inferior logical methods.
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  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    but that's kind of funny, because if a Fi person is telling you off for something, it's almost guaranteed that it's because you've infringed upon their space. so... it's like... you're saying they're stepping on your toes for calling you out on you stepping on their toes.

    which is legit, of course, since they are stepping on you, but maybe valuable to consider how you might be infringing upon them before you blame them solely for the incident?

    that's definitely true for myself and the Fe doms i know. we have different perspectives on things, and when we blame each other it tends to be a disconnect in reasoning. we have to figure out how we've hurt the other person, reciprocally, to understand the mechanics of the whole situation...
    Totally true. From my experience, we both kinda infringed on each other. That's why I changed my interaction with them and we worked hard to come to a compromise in those relationships.

  9. #99
    Senior Member chris1207's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    You wouldn't call a universally applied logic system black & white? It could also be referred to as "true & false," "A & B," "On & Off," etc, it all means the same thing. Something cannot be in conflict with itself.

    It's not like I'm attacking Te in any way. I use Te, and value it very much. But Te is all about categories. It lives for them, much like Fe.
    For the bold: No I wouldn't. Like you mention, Te is all about categories. That's why it isn't just black and white. If I had to give it a pejorative adjective I would say it's shallow.

    For the underlined: That's Ti. Perhaps the elements in a Te array can be true or false but the fabric of Te (the array itself) is not as simple. That being said, it's much less flexible overall than Ti.
    "... you think deeply about stuff [that] nobody cares about and hardly anybody can understand you." ~ Peguy talking about Ni users. So true.

  10. #100
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    I'm extremely curious- most everyone I know with Fi is incredibly black and white about their morals/values/beliefs- even when they can and will change them.

    Which I think is ridiculous. It is like they are correct until they are wrong, and then once they revise their morals, those[/I] beliefs and morals are absolutely correct and everyone else is wrong. So what is up with that?

    Example 1: I value Christian beliefs, and everything in the Bible is is absolute and not open to question. But maybe I disagree a little with this here, and a little with this there. But I am allowed to discount some of those beliefs because they don't make sense. But if anyone else does, they are going to hell, because I know what should be absolute. /brings down mighty scepter

    Why are people so pretentious as to decide that they get to decide what is right and wrong? Some things I can understand- killing babies is frowned upon by most people. But why do people get so high and mighty over certain things which many people feel are open to debates.

    For example, I know many people who have gone from atheist to Christian and it is like they can't fathom how anyone can not believe in God and how those people are going to hell. Seriously? All those years you were an atheist and then you decided, hey, this makes sense! and have no understanding?

    Same with an ENFP I know who became Muslim from being Christian. It isn't like she changed when she was a kid. It was in her late 20s. She feels 'naked' without her hijab (even though many progressively minded Muslim women don't wear them- in fact, it draws more attention to you to be white and wearing that sort of garb!). Anyway, she frowns upon people not part of her religion, and has absolutely no understanding for how anyone can believe what she doesn't believe, and that they are immoral, etc.

    Anyway, I hate to use religion as my example, but those are the first things that came to mind.

    Bonus question- if Fi greatly values logic in a Ti sort of way, does that make them NFP or NTP?

    Add: I mean people who use Fi.

    @Jack427 you do not use Fe. In fact, I think Fe is an INTJ fail most of the time.
    Haven't read through the whole thread yet, but I have to say this reminds me a lot of my xNFP friend, in a lot of ways. Ie. revising things quite regularly, but saying she's "always" felt/believed that way, and coming across somewhat judgmental with those who think differently. Also, not really understanding that not everyone has the same outlook and fascinations/obsessions that she does, and that they can still be interesting worthwhile people. But I can't help wondering if it's more of a communication issue - ie. she sounds very black and white, but doesn't feel that way quite as much as she sounds.

    EDIT: The more I think about it, I think that what I've observed has more to do with the way a person expresses themselves, not the way they ARE or act. These can be very very different things!

    My friend (who is probably a reserved/withdrawn ENFP) can say things which sound much more judgmental than what I'd usually come out with. But in practice, i think she is quite a bit more live-and-let-live than I am. It's interesting actually. She has forgiven things from exes and so on that I would never forgive - I mean, the person would be dead to me, whereas she'd still keep amicably in touch. On the other hand, she's cut people out of her life for reasons I really don't understand - but she probably feels similarly about my approach. And while she cuts people out much more easily than I do, she often lets them back in sooner or later. If I seriously cut someone out, there was a lot behind it and they are very unlikely to ever get back in, or only as the most casual and distant of acquaintances.
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