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  1. #61
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    I don't know why everybody has to take this personally.
    Who's says I am taking it personally...? Just a honest inquiry. Your response seemed like a deflection to be honest.

    You had a hypothesis, we responded with what anecdotal evidence we had, it did not match up with your hypothesis and then since most disagree with you, we're taking it personally.

  2. #62
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    p. 318: "...organizing data by relatedness to ourselves."

    p. 318: "Extraverted Feeling is conceptual and analytic. It encourages us to make rational choices, to measure our options for relationship against an external standard of behaviors. What distinguishes this function from Extraverted Thinking is the fact that relatedness involves human beings, not impersonal abstractions."
    p. 323: "The customs that constitute our [Extraverted?] Feeling vocabulary are (socially) inherited forms that shape the relationships we establish and maintain. Their meaning is not straightforward but cumulative, becoming apparent as we use them and recognize their effects." (As a Function Attitude, then, Fe would be the ability to see people's behaviors in terms of such customs: as recognizable declarations of different kinds of relationship.)
    Proposed definition #1

    Hypothesis: Extraverted Feeling is the attitude of viewing everything in terms of what role it defines for people to play in regard to each other. When you say "How are you?" to someone, you are playing a role. It's a role that is intrinsically connected to other people's social roles; you can't play it by yourself. When the other person says, "Oh, not too bad. How about yourself?", they are playing out the complementary role. From an Fe perspective, by definition, every act is a declaration of what role you would like to play in the social setting.

    When people speak of someone else's action as an attempt to "define them", they are making a proposition that only has meaning through Fe. For example, if a male boss says to a female employee, "Get me a cup of coffee," from an Fe perspective, this would be an attempt to "define" the employee as subservient and as a waitress or personal caretaker. If she goes along with it, then she is accepting that as her social role. Of course, she has the option to not go along with it. She can negotiate to play a different role, and the only way to do this is to push her boss into modifying his role. She could say, "I'm an engineer, not a waitress." Her boss now must choose roles when he responds. He could insist firmly on the dominant/subservient roles, with something like "I'm the boss here, and I just asked you for a cup of coffee. Now get it," in which case he risks having other people refuse to play along with his desired role, which could leave him playing big boss all by himself, which is no fun. Or he could go along and establish his boss role in a slightly modified form: "Ah, terribly sorry. I'll call the cafeteria staff. What'll you have to drink?"

    In this manner, from an Fe standpoint, everyone is continually defining each other and getting defined by each other, as they establish social roles that others implicitly agree to go along with.
    Fact is even by not accepting that you are playing a role. Fe is everywhere and it will eat you alive, too
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #63
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Every act a display of loyalty: neutrality not possible

    Sometimes you get into situations where some people you know will play along with one role and other people will give you a hard time if you do. For example, if you do things outside of the usual gender roles, some people won't care and others will ostracize you or worse. Or if you wear the traditional clothing of one religion, other people of that religion will treat you with great respect, but people from different religions will often treat you badly. Because of this ever-present possibility, every act you take is a proclamation of which group of people you choose to cast your lot with. From the Fe perspective, everything you do says, "My loyalties are with these people. Deal with it."

    There is no escaping the fact that everything you do is such a declaration; no statement, no matter how factual or impersonal, can be truly neutral. Every statement is acting out a role, which some people will play along with and others won't.
    .
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  4. #64
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Questions

    Is it possible to take an Extraverted Feeling attitude alone on a desert island?

    Extraverted feelers are forced to, but they might very well quickly become neurotic. If they had at least one other person to orient to they would probably be ok, or at least stable. Long term effects of isolation would be interesting (possibly look at psychological records of people who have been kept in solitary (some of which would probably be Fes)).

    To maintain sanity, they would most likely turn to romantic fantasies (esp. romantic fantasies of being rescued), etc....

    This might actually force them to focus on improving themselves.
    I am embarassed by how much they know about me
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  5. #65
    Glycerine
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    @entropie: is that addressed to me or just in general?

  6. #66
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    Who's says I am taking it personally...? Just a honest inquiry. Your response seemed like a deflection to be honest.

    You had a hypothesis, we responded with what anecdotal evidence we had, it did not match up with your hypothesis and then since most disagree with you, we're taking it personally.
    What hypothesis?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #67
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    The person you're talking about sounds like a retard, (hopefully she's not a poster on this forum or I will be you-know-what)- but it's funny anyway.
    I wouldn't be able to handle her screech-owl voice if I worked for her. (Screech owls, by the way, don't screech, Barn owls do. But it wouldn't be an effective analogy to compare her to a Barn owl.)
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #68
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    ... Fe and math ... IQ.
    As a Fe person Ti almost "looks" like a form of intuition to us (not is, but looks). When we sit in math class in high school we literally see the "jump" from 47654765376536 to 67653765675 and without the faculty to understand "necessary and universal, it must follow with universal necessity and no other way" it looks like intuitive magic to us. So we try "uhhhh I guess this number goes there!" some people have great mathuition and there you get hour Infps math geniuses.

    I didn't understand math until I studied logic in college. I'm a "smart guy" in many traditional subjects, but until I learned logic away from numbers and then applied it to math... It was either
    <> you memorize steps like it's a chemistry class
    <> or you poke around and hope your mathuition is right today!

  9. #69
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venom View Post
    As a Fe person Ti almost "looks" like a form of intuition to us (not is, but looks). When we sit in math class in high school we literally see the "jump" from 47654765376536 to 67653765675 and without the faculty to understand "necessary and universal, it must follow with universal necessity and no other way" it looks like intuitive magic to us. So we try "uhhhh I guess this number goes there!" some people have great mathuition and there you get hour Infps math geniuses.

    I didn't understand math until I studied logic in college. I'm a "smart guy" in many traditional subjects, but until I learned logic away from numbers and then applied it to math... It was either
    <> you memorize steps like it's a chemistry class
    <> or you poke around and hope your mathuition is right today!
    Universal and necessary, i.e., a priori. Even the person who claims "the truth is, there is no truth" is expressing a universal and necessary truth. This person is speaking from an a priori faculty.

    The mathuition type of person would have flunked out of my algebra classes. It was methodology all the way. We couldn't just intuit the correct answer, we had to prove our work. Isn't that the basis on which all math teachers grade papers?

    I don't think you're seeing Ti necessarily, unless one solved the problem "in head," invisibly to you, but using proper methodology. That's the only way I think it could look like intuition at work. And yet there are the amazing intuitives out there who simply do a quantum leap to the conclusion, and get it right. But their weakness lies in floundering around with the methodology when it is called for.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #70
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    Universal and necessary, i.e., a priori. Even the person who claims "the truth is, there is no truth" is expressing a universal and necessary truth. This person is speaking from an a priori faculty.

    The mathuition type of person would have flunked out of my algebra classes. It was methodology all the way. We couldn't just intuit the correct answer, we had to prove our work. Isn't that the basis on which all math teachers grade papers?

    I don't think you're seeing Ti necessarily, unless one solved the problem "in head," invisibly to you, but using proper methodology. That's the only way I think it could look like intuition at work. And yet there are the amazing intuitives out there who simply do a quantum leap to the conclusion, and get it right. But their weakness lies in floundering around with the methodology when it is called for.
    I couldn't dream up a math problem for you.. I think that's hurting me explanation here. Let me try again.

    X^2 - 25 = 0

    <> chemistry/cookbook style learning... The Ti challenged would memorize that when we see a problem like this, we root the number and put it into (x + _ ) ( x - __) bubbles. Very visual style... But no real mathuition or logic is helping us really "learn math"
    <> mathuition style ...root that number... Cancel the middle.. :poof: ... answer!
    <> logic based...
    X^2 - 25 = 0
    it must follow that if we add 25 to both sides, that we haven't changed the fundamental problem. It's analytically equivalent
    x^2 = 25
    It must follow that if we root both sides, that we haven't changed the fundamental problem. It's by definition still an equivalent problem
    x = 5 and -5 there is no other possibility! No mathuition!

    Have I butchered and shoehorned this example to fit my opinion? Absolutely. What do you expect from an F? I really just wanted to communicate a potential way of seeing how some people get throu math, but never really learn it even with a normal IQ. Poor mathuition and no logic is a problem when cook book math stops being acceptable!

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