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  1. #11
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    are you trying to say that a Pi can directly collect information about the outside world? or just that an IxxJ can collect information about the world? i'll assume it's the latter.

    i can understand how an INxJ would have access to all the necessary information -- Se takes sensory input in, Ni provides a pattern structure for the info. but how can an ISxJ do the same? where does the original sensory input come from? it's a feedback loop that can't start...

    isn't Se just completely necessary for every type hundreds of times a second? (unless you're alone and not moving)

    if the mind was a computer program, what would Se's code be? what about Ne? wouldn't Ne have to start with Se's information?

    as i understand the functions now, they do not seem parallel. if they're not parallel, why would the same formula work for ExxJs and ExxPs?

    </NiTi>

    We are talking past each other.

    My point about the ISJ was that Introverted Sensing DOES access external information.

    Show the ISTJ a pencil, he will see it, but when you ask him to reflect on what a pencil is. He will think about his personal reflections about the pencil.

    The ESTP will think of his experience of observing the pencil directly when asked.

    Again, let me have Jung state this point in his own words.

    "Although the introverted consicousness is naturally aware of external conditions," Psychological Types. P373.

    Pause right here. Think of this sentence careful and how it relates to what I wrote above. Internal consciousness IS aware of the external environment.

    This means that Introverted Sensing and Introverted Intuition can collect information about the external world by virtue of being perceiving functions.

    Jung continues..

    "...it selects the subjective determinants as the decisive ones. It is therefore oriented by the factor in perception and cognition which responds to the sense stimulus in accordance with the individual's subjective disposition. For example, two people see the same object, but they never see it in such a way that the images receive are absolutely identical. Quite apart from the variable acuteness of the sense organs and the personal equation, there often exists a radical difference, both in kind and in degree, in the psychic assimilation of the image. Whereas the extravert continually appeals to what comes to him from the object, the introvert relies principally on what the sense impression constellates in the subject." Psychological Types P.374


    Let me draw an example for you.

    A dominant Introverted Intuitive and dominant Extroverted Intuitive read Kant. The text says for example, noumenal world is in experiencable and infinite, phenomenal world is finite and experiencable.

    The Introverted Intuitive makes an assessment of what is read. Associates the idea with where else he heard the worlds noumenal, infinite, finite, phenomenal, etc.

    So the Introvert appeals to his world of ideas when collecting and establishing information. When asked what the noumenal and phenomenal are, the Introvert will look to his association of thoughts to give the answer.

    Yet the Extrovert will simply reminisce about his direct experience. When asked to describe the noumenal and phenomenal, he will not look back to his long chain of thoughts, but will simply think about the time he has experienced acquiring such knowledge, of the time he first read Kant and will simply state what he saw.

    Hence, my claim is Introverted Perception does indeed have access to the external world, yet it interacts with the external world not directly but through its own scope of perception. It interposes such an entity between itself and the external world.

    Concerning your question about Ne and Se. Consider the following. In order for Ne to process an idea, it must access the idea through the senses first. You must either read about it (see it), or hear someone explain it to you verbally. (hear it)

    As an allusion to my previous point, not only Se can have you hear and see, but Si can as well. This is the claim I've made in response to your first post.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  2. #12
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    so you're saying i've been thinking about it wrong the whole time.

    i always thought that introverted functions only had access to information from other functions (as opposed to environment). guess that's not true.

    so does every single function have access to the environment? can Ti directly see the world? i thought it only had access to the external world through a Pe; i guess i might be wrong.

  3. #13
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    so you're saying i've been thinking about it wrong the whole time.

    i always thought that introverted functions only had access to information from other functions (as opposed to environment). guess that's not true.

    so does every single function have access to the environment? can Ti directly see the world? i thought it only had access to the external world through a Pe; i guess i might be wrong.
    We have an incommensurability problem here. (oranges and apples)

    Perceiving functions (Si,Ni, Ne,Se), are concerned with collecting information, as the term 'perceiving' necessitates. Only they have direct access to the external world.

    Judging functions are concerned with making decisions. They have access to the external world only to the extent that their perceiving function does. In plain English, in order for you to make a decision, you must have something to make a decision about.

    Ti does not have access to the external world, just like Te does not either. They both depend on the information collected. The difference between Ti and Te is that Te can access the collected information head on, yet Ti would add an element of its own scrutiny to the information.

    An example of this would be the following: If a Te was to answer your question, he'd try to answer your question as you have stated it. Yet, I, as a Ti effortlessly modified the problem you had in mind into a more suitable one.

    As a result of the mindsets described above Te can get stuck on the given context to the point of being rigid and inflexible, and applying same metholodologies of thought over and over again to all situations we come across, even when doing so hardly makes sense. (I am sure we are all familiar with the kind of an ESTJ who appears logical and rational at the outset, yet in reality he is simply going by the book every time. If he has not been taught how to solve a problem and cannot find instructions anywhere, he shall simply slam shut).

    Yet, Ti could get so disconnected from the current context in the endeavor of modifying the current problem and solutions that it will simply get lost in the world of theoretical possibilities solving problems of its own, none of which could be relevant to the one posed at hand.

    Hence, when you ask me a question about whether or not Ti has access to the external world, my introverted mindset links me to a myriad of other problems to solve concerning this matter. (Yet I try to share only the solutions that are relevant to your question) This is because I am oriented by not the direct external experience of problem solving, but my inner perception of problem solving which interposes between my current thoughts and direct experience.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  4. #14
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    If you just look at E/I as isolated functions, yes, they don't seem too complicated or different...
    I am sure that you meant to say attitudes. E/I are not functions, but the attitude of functions (S/N,T/F).

  5. #15
    Senior Member wedekit's Avatar
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    I thoroughly enjoyed this thread. I don't have any questions or anything, but I would be interested in reading anything else.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  6. #16
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    We have an incommensurability problem here. (oranges and apples)

    Perceiving functions (Si,Ni, Ne,Se), are concerned with collecting information, as the term 'perceiving' necessitates. Only they have direct access to the external world.

    Judging functions are concerned with making decisions. They have access to the external world only to the extent that their perceiving function does. In plain English, in order for you to make a decision, you must have something to make a decision about.

    Ti does not have access to the external world, just like Te does not either. They both depend on the information collected. The difference between Ti and Te is that Te can access the collected information head on, yet Ti would add an element of its own scrutiny to the information.
    wow. that's a much easier way to think about it.

    the model i had in my mind was so much more complex -- needlessly.

    which is exactly:
    Yet, Ti could get so disconnected from the current context in the endeavor of modifying the current problem and solutions that it will simply get lost in the world of theoretical possibilities solving problems of its own, none of which could be relevant to the one posed at hand.

  7. #17
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Folks, feel free to bring up any issues concerning typology. I hope this will be a great outlet for us to make fresh discoveries in the field.

    Need help with your type? Help getting started on typology because you have just found this board and have heard of MBTI/typology a week ago? Don't be shy, even most rudimentary questions will be treated thoroughly.

    I'd like to underline that despite the technical and academical ambience this thread may exude and the style thereof suggests, I do have an interest in helping all who may desire such assistance in sorting out type.

    So please drop me a line here or a PM.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  8. #18
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Folks, feel free to bring up any issues concerning typology. I hope this will be a great outlet for us to make fresh discoveries in the field.

    Need help with your type? Help getting started on typology because you have just found this board and have heard of MBTI/typology a week ago? Don't be shy, even most rudimentary questions will be treated thoroughly.

    I'd like to underline that despite the technical and academical ambience this thread may exude and the style thereof suggests, I do have an interest in helping all who may desire such assistance in sorting out type.

    So please drop me a line here or a PM.
    "Academical", lol. You know what Wing??? You crack me up.

    I find it "ironical" that you proffer advice on other people's types, yet never seem to expound upon your own.

    In fact, your identity remains yet to be known. You seem to hide behind your pedantry and rhetoric. I dunno, perhaps you fear rejection and thus have resorted to contributing to this social environment from the safety of an "academical" distance.

    You've taken it upon yourself to occupy such prestigious roles, both that of "Adviser", and resident "Expert", yet from what *experience* have you earned such sagacious positions?

    Earth is that thing that gravity has you standing on, I'd like to see the ethereal Wing come down from the clouds and try out his two legs on terra firma.

    As safe as the world of theory might be for you, that doesn't change the reality of things, that being, that you are in fact a human being, and that you are yet just another man trying to figure out who he is and what he will be in respect to others and the world he's thrust upon.

    That's been on my mind for awhile, please don't take offense.

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by wedekit View Post
    I thoroughly enjoyed this thread. I don't have any questions or anything, but I would be interested in reading anything else.
    Yes, I agree, a very illuminating thread.

  10. #20
    Member Annuit Coeptis's Avatar
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    I love your threads...

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