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  1. #11
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    I'm not sure shadow function theory works the same way for everyone. For me, it's rather strange...

    I have a similar relationship to Si and Te, in that I can see their usefulness much of the time, but feel that in some situations they are too brutal (Te) or too unfair (Si).

    Ne is a bit stranger... sometimes I can appreciate it, but most of the time I'm oblivious to it so that I can't say anything about it one way or the other. Sometimes when I do notice it, I perceive it as frivolous or scatter-brained in finding its conclusions (no offense to you Ne-users, I know that's just my perception, which is perhaps untrue).

    Fi is worst of all. I have difficulty seeing any good in people who have Fi as their dominant or auxiliary (although I know that I should be able to ), and usually see it as the undoing of those who have it as tertiary or inferior. To me, it makes no sense to imagine a bunch of feelings internally and then act on them. I think only feelings that occur as the result of perceiving something are valid, because I believe valid feelings must arise as the consequence of something being perceived on some level, and that only properly expressed feelings can reasonably be expected to carry weight with other people.

    Interestingly, many INTP's are actually better at coping with Fi than I am, even though I'm an INFJ.

    I would agree with most of what has been said here, in that the theory is most accurate for the first two functions, and becomes less so as you move down the list.

  2. #12
    The Destroyer Colors's Avatar
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    I'm Ti dominant, and Fi is probably my 3rd or 4th strongest function. I find that Fi usually dovetails with my Ti, backing it up. I kind of think of them as working parallel-ly (same approach to evaluation, different information). When their conclusions contradict, I usually reconsider with Ti. I'll admit, when I am under stress, I tend to ignore the Fi judgement (the Ti is still the head honcho)- which is generally ends badly.

    (Actually, I see more conflict in myself in generally in between the different directions of the same function. For example, occasionally I do use Ni- and it makes me want to run and act on this version of the events, while my Ne wants to hold back/ interact with more information for competing intepretations.)

    I usually test about Ti>Se/Ne>Fi>Te>Si>Fe>Ni, so I'm generally introverted judgement>extraverted perception--(gap)-->extraverted judgement>introverted perception.

    As I understood MBTI, your type is determined by your two strongest cognitive functions (or rather, your strongest extraverted function and your strongest introverted function and their order)- which makes these orders for all 8 function circumspect to me. I mean, how many people can really fit into a mold that rigid? Does anyone here consider themselves to fit the function order? Seems built for beauty/symmetry and is not necessarily useful for describing people.

  3. #13
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    This has also been a head scratching subject for me.

    Let's see... I really don't believe there's a pattern for shadow development... Mine just kind of slip into my primaries all over the place. I think I now consistently test as Ni/Ne > Ti > Fe > Fi/Se > Te >> Si. If you take the results of that little cognitive questionaire to heart...

    About function interactions... this is what I noticed in myself.

    Ni + Se looks like a slower working version of Ne.
    Ni + Si (of which I don't have much of)... can work together... or rather Si become a slave of Ni. Fragmented memories which Ni quickly snatches up and runs off with them.
    Se + Ne... perhaps because Ne is a shadow for me and Se being my inferior requires concentration... I have to switch back and forth between them.
    Fe + Fi... I consider to be incompatible. One can be liken to what I want, the other to what other people wants. If I go I want other people to be happy... then Fe automatically wins.
    Ti + Te... I wouldn't say they're incompatible like Fe + Fi... I guess there's no conflict between the two because they're addressing two separate things. Ti for understanding and Te for finding the optimized solution. Usually Te shuts down Ti analysis with "this is the best solution" and that's done unconsciously.

    (A very strange notion... are Fe and Te unconscious? while Fi and Ti tends to be consciously "laborious?")

    Fe + Te can work together... Fe wants something done, Te figures out how to get it done.
    Ti + Fi doesn't work for me. But I don't have much Fi to begin with...

  4. #14
    Enigma Nadir's Avatar
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    Shadow functions are mostly there because egalitarian souls within MBTI theorists felt they were isolated little creatures who ought to be recieving more attention. Pay them no heed.
    Not really.

  5. #15
    Large Member Ender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Fe + Fi... I consider to be incompatible. One can be liken to what I want, the other to what other people wants. If I go I want other people to be happy... then Fe automatically wins.

    For me with my Fe just slightly weaker then my Fi it creates some what of a martyr complex. Where I'll do things for or give things to others and that's usually when I'm happiest. There is times when it puts my own situation at risk, for example financially, but I don't seem to really care about that aspect if it meant I made someone else's life easier/better.

    At the same time if I'm around someone I can't help then it leaves me feeling frustrated or useless. Having someone who likes having me around but refuses to accept anything from me or needs me to do something for them can confuse the hell out of me as to just why they want me there.
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  6. #16
    Rats off to ya! Mort Belfry's Avatar
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    If the shadow processes are so unconscious then how can anyone be an authority on them?

    I don't think much is known about them simply because we're all in the dark trying to describe a bat. I'd like to see some actual laboratory experiments on their use in people before taking much to heart.
    Why do we always come here?

    I guess we'll never know.

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    To have to watch this show.

  7. #17
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badlands View Post
    Yeah, it can get pretty bad when two opposing judging functions go at war with eachother; when they go to battle, you have absolutely no control over your mind, and if left untreated, something like that probably leads to insanity.
    What exactly do you mean by this?

  8. #18
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Missed this one! I think there was another longer thread with the same title that I had seen before.
    Imay possibly have been thinking of this thread: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...functions.html
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    John Beebe, M.D.A Closer Look at the Auxiliary Function (Upcoming Event and Further Reading) | Capital

    (three articles by beebe about his theory)

    (all shadow process roles are usually employed passively and unconsciously)

    5/th process/backup/opposing personality: This is usually the first process to jump to defend us, if we are articulating our mission in response to an insult, it is this process that we use. when people here remarks from someone who's dominant process is thier fifth process, they often 'blow it of before it even registers'. When someone is using this process a lot, we get frustrated and think "this is so dumb/pointless". I think I can see my INTJ math teacher get tense when I talk.
    6th process/discovery/witch/senex: One aspect of the auxiliary process is that it is very good at taking care of other people but not very helpful for taking care of yourself. If someone is taking advantage of this, or if we are feeling stuck or powerless in any way, one solution is to 'tie down' others so that they don't get in our way. The senex/witch accomplishes this by being viciously critical of others, demoralizing them and stopping them in thier tracks, i.e "you ungrateful bitch!". When we see this process in someone else, we might interpret everything they say as criticism.
    7th process/humor/decieving/trickster: Another way to respond to being controlled is to set double-binding traps. if you intimidate the child, you get to deal with the witch and the trickster. Usually a significant part of someone's humor is about this process. We often distrust others when they are using this process.
    8th process/devilish/demon: This is the most amoral of all the cognitive processes in our head, and a person's definition of evil is usually about this process. Often our most painful/traumatizing experiences in life involve this process. This process is often an empty vessel where society pours its influence. Long lasting hatreds also reside here. Most uses of this process are either awkward and painful, or completely phony and banal. If two people trigger the 8th process in each other, they often bring out the worst in each other.
    More pieces of the puzzle! Never seen some of those descriptions before. (The most I had gotten from in books was from Berens, and more recently, Haas and Hunziker. Two other sites are on the type templates on Hunziker's site: Wellness Resources of Vermont
    and this other one: Symbol Thinking: Mapping Jungian Archetypes on Cognitive Processes) Again; Beebe should really publish an exhaustive manual on this stuff.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm still not convinced on the prominence and impact of the latter four "shadow functions."

    One test -- scramble the four unused functions and then assign them to shadow function slots 5-8... and then make up a definition of how they could serve that role in the person's life. I bet you could do it.

    So that's the problem, to me. Where did these latter four "roles" get derived from? Why is slot 6 the senex/witch? (To get that, they had to assign slot #2 to be a parent function.) It's all rather self-created by the psychologist in question.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    I'll also add, you will not get the function order from the results of the cognitiveprocesses test. I don't see why people think THAT would have to be happen for the theory to be true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Colors View Post
    As I understood MBTI, your type is determined by your two strongest cognitive functions (or rather, your strongest extraverted function and your strongest introverted function and their order)- which makes these orders for all 8 function circumspect to me. I mean, how many people can really fit into a mold that rigid? Does anyone here consider themselves to fit the function order? Seems built for beauty/symmetry and is not necessarily useful for describing people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nadir View Post
    Shadow functions are mostly there because egalitarian souls within MBTI theorists felt they were isolated little creatures who ought to be recieving more attention. Pay them no heed.
    Well, we all use all eight, so the other four had to play some roles. So they just parallel their opposite attitude counterparts in a "shadowy" way, and this makes a lot of sense. Here Beebe himself discusses how he named them: http://www.typeinsights.com/FreeArti...ctionmodel.pdf

    The way I see it, they won't neccesarily "rigidly' follow this order as far as strength. The strenghts from the CP test do seem to favor Thompson's model better, with the 3rd and 4th on the very bottom below 5-8. So Beebe's model is just showing you the parallel nature, with the shadows in the same order, but below the "line" where our consciousness supposedly drops out.
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  9. #19
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    The shadow function isn't really significant. One simply sucks at it and tries and yearns to earn worthiness of it, where as a function one is at least decent at will find fault. Ie: Ni and Ne clash, and for the INTJ, Ni dominates. Ni and Se have little relationship. They are like opposite sides on opposite turfs. There is no way to compare.

  10. #20
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Ni and Se would in fact work in tandem. Though the Se would have a much lesser role. Shadow Ni and Se would in fact work in tandem. Though the Se would have a much lesser role. Shadow counterparts Ne and Si will unconsciously affect the person (I.e. "rub him the wrong way")
    Forgot to address this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    To me, it makes no sense to imagine a bunch of feelings internally and then act on them. I think only feelings that occur as the result of perceiving something are valid, because I believe valid feelings must arise as the consequence of something being perceived on some level, and that only properly expressed feelings can reasonably be expected to carry weight with other people.
    I haven't quite heard of the difference between introverted and extraverted functions expressed in that sequential manner before. (Introverted="imagined", then acted upon; extraverted is based on perceiving only). While the latter figures; the former at first seems a bit of a stretch, but I see where it would match the "subjective emotional filter" I have seen mentioned, but not really described well. Where did you get that idea from?
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
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