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  1. #71
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    As for question 2 you place one value above another because no two values are truly equal. If your value is more empirically correct/justifiable/thought out etc. then why not?
    How often does the opposing value come out as superior? How does one decide a value is empirically correct if harm to others or fairness is not part of it?
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
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  2. #72
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    How often does the opposing value come out as superior? How does one decide a value is empirically correct if harm to others or fairness is not part of it?
    You assess it case by case. In some situation one value is more relevant than in others. And you make general templates for typical situations to occur so the priority of all values is instantly accessible.

    You also try to account for each others personal priorities as much as possible. Most Fi users however share a few universal values/truths such as 'harm none', 'freedom of speech','freedom of choice' so the 'greater good' tends to be quite clear and agreed upon, just the nuances on how you prefer it to go down and where you actual boundaries are will differ.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    How often does the opposing value come out as superior? How does one decide a value is empirically correct if harm to others or fairness is not part of it?
    The extent of harm or the measure of fairness has no bearing on factual validity at all. As for determining which one is superior that comes down to which value or idea can win out in whichever conflict situation it is presented with, whether via rational debate or battle. Whether deserved or not the winner receives the spoils and their values survive. Whether they continue to survive is a different question entirely.

  4. #74
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    The extent of harm or the measure of fairness has no bearing on factual validity at all. As for determining which one is superior that comes down to which value or idea can win out in whichever conflict situation it is presented with, whether via rational debate or battle. Whether deserved or not the winner receives the spoils and their values survive. Whether they continue to survive is a different question entirely.
    You know what, I was trying really hard to not turn this thread into another Fi vs. Fe discussion, and I kind of did anyway. I'll stop.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
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  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    You know what, I was trying really hard to not turn this thread into another Fi vs. Fe discussion, and I kind of did anyway. I'll stop.
    You should just give in and fight. I know how much you want to argue Fe's corner. If you were to use Ti against Fi then it would win. Ti aiming at the right place in regards to Fi is like putting a paper aeroplane through a shredder - one move and it get ripped to shreds (even though it doesn't realise that it has been slaughtered.) However you seem to prefer arguing from the point of view of Fe. There's nothing against it but one thing I have learnt is that Fi will find a way to beat Fe again and again. It won't even have to look for very long. One kick and the whole thing pretty much collapses in on itself.

    But that is enough from me. It's bed time. Farewell!

  6. #76
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    You should just give in and fight. I know how much you want to argue Fe's corner. If you were to use Ti against Fi then it would win. Ti aiming at the right place in regards to Fi is like putting a paper aeroplane through a shredder - one move and it get ripped to shreds (even though it doesn't realise that it has been slaughtered.) However you seem to prefer arguing from the point of view of Fe. There's nothing against it but one thing I have learnt is that Fi will find a way to beat Fe again and again. It won't even have to look for very long. One kick and the whole thing pretty much collapses in on itself.
    Very well.

    The extent of harm or the measure of fairness has no bearing on factual validity at all.
    Extent of harm is very much factually verifiable:

    "'Does this bother you?"

    "No." (Failing that level of clarity, there are always actions and nonverbal indicators.) I also include guilt under harm. Feeling guilty is self-harm, and should therefore be avoided.

    Fairness can be deduced. Perhaps it is not a fact, but it exists in the same way a mathematical proof does. Given enough knowledge of the context, fairness is probably something people could agree on. The knowledge is the tricky part.




    As for determining which one is superior that comes down to which value or idea can win out in whichever conflict situation it is presented with, whether via rational debate or battle.
    INFPs, the Social Darwinists of values? Is this functionally different from the supposed Fe tendency for groupthink? If the values that survive are the valid ones, don't these values become the values of the group? It seems like Fi will adopt values of the group after all, because they are "proven".

    Whether deserved or not the winner receives the spoils and their values survive. Whether they continue to survive is a different question entirely.
    Will they? What if other Fi users challenge those values? Then it will all have been for naught. Do people truly always act according to the Fi values at the end of the day?
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
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  7. #77
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    Fi, Te, and Si are all scary to me to some degree (yup, my shadow functions--no surprise there).

    Fi because no matter how hard I try, I can't get a clear concept of how it works in my mind, so it's unpredictable. And not understanding it can have harsh consequences. Tertiary Fi in particular is scary because people tend to not realize when they're using it and think they're being completely objective when they're leaking value judgments all over the place.

    Te because it can be harsh. ("I'm not hurting you with this sledgehammer--I'm only hitting you with it. Stop being sensitive.")

    Si because it can make its users go on and on and on and on and on about the minute details of things that don't matter until I want to stab myself in the head with a knife to get out of the conversation, even if I care about the topic. Also it can be like "No, we didn't give your idea careful consideration--we just like things to stay the same for its own sake!" I don't even know what to say when I'm faced with this kind of thinking because it seems so bizarre and unhelpful.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Very well.



    Extent of harm is very much factually verifiable:

    "'Does this bother you?"

    "No." (Failing that level of clarity, there are always actions and nonverbal indicators.) I also include guilt under harm. Feeling guilty is self-harm, and should therefore be avoided.

    Fairness can be deduced. Perhaps it is not a fact, but it exists in the same way a mathematical proof does. Given enough knowledge of the context, fairness is probably something people could agree on. The knowledge is the tricky part.
    I suspect you misunderstood me here. My argument was "facts are facts no matter how inconvenient or painful they may be." They don't cease to be because they may harm others. I'm well aware that harm can also be empirically verified and measured but that wasn't my argument here.

    INFPs, the Social Darwinists of values? Is this functionally different from the supposed Fe tendency for groupthink? If the values that survive are the valid ones, don't these values become the values of the group? It seems like Fi will adopt values of the group after all, because they are "proven".
    I don't have a clue how you came to this conclusion.

    Will they? What if other Fi users challenge those values? Then it will all have been for naught. Do people truly always act according to the Fi values at the end of the day?
    For the first part: You are supporting my viewpoint. I'm aware that they may survive but I was implying that the next time they are challenged they may fail to and will be resigned to the dustbin. I would also agree that it's been for naught (though that depends on whether you're one of those people who "value the journey" or not).

    For the second part: That depends on the influence Fi has on the psyche. It's will cannot be denied but it depends whether its a dictator trying to exert that will or a two year old ankle biter.

  9. #79
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Functions don't scare me but there are people who do. Most often it's extreme mental illness that scares me, since if not treated, makes people unpredictable where they lack any boundaries to their invasiveness.

  10. #80
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    I suspect you misunderstood me here. My argument was "facts are facts no matter how inconvenient or painful they may be." They don't cease to be because they may harm others. I'm well aware that harm can also be empirically verified and measured but that wasn't my argument here.
    For facts to be facts, they must also be true. Merely believing in the truth of something does not make it a fact. Objective reality exists, but it is elusive.




    I don't have a clue how you came to this conclusion.
    The truth of a value is determined by how successful it is, and whether a value has won or not. Does this not mean that Fi will adopt the values of others that are proven successful? And the method of determining whether they have achieved success is whether they have spread. And what is a value that has spread to many different people if not a group value? Yet group values are apparently something only Fe types adhere? Is there not a contradiction, or am I misinterpreting you? If so, how?




    For the second part: That depends on the influence Fi has on the psyche. It's will cannot be denied but it depends whether its a dictator trying to exert that will or a two year old ankle biter.
    Do two year old even have cognitive functions?
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

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