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  1. #1
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Default Judgers Do It Better

    No, not sex (at least not that I know of). What I mean is that Judgers will often get more done than Perceivers. I've been experimenting recently; going with the flow - moving without a plan - and thinking on my feet. And I've recognised that structure increases efficiency in accomplishment all the time. It's not some bias against Perceivers; I simply find that with a plan, one can achieve more, and one is very rarely susceptible to doing things one should not, because one already has a plan. Without a plan, one feels without obligation, and hence free, to do what they want when they want. With a plan of action, guilt that one has not done what one set out to do ensures that one does it; in other words, one won't go off the rails. Essentially, you're forcing yourself to adapt to the task at hand as opposed to taking the Perceiver's route of adapting the task to one's mindframe. I'm not saying it's "bad" or "worse" than what the Judger does; it's simply less effective in getting things done IMO. Perhaps the Judging route sacrifices low stress levels for a more accomplished life. I don't know. That's another topic.

    ETA: One other thing to mention is that I'm not implying that Judgers do a better job of what they do than do Perceivers, or even that it is equal to the Perceiver's doing a job. The Perceiver might well do a better job. All I'm saying is that Judgers are better at doing more stuff in a given amount of time because they have structure.

  2. #2
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    I've thought about squeezing a little more of results from my daily work, and I've thought about this topic in the last few days.

    I wrote in my personal diary an idea, that I tend to do things in two ways.

    One is letting my wandering mind dictate the speed of my actions, getting things done at a speed thus allowed.

    Other is choosing the goal to do and to perform it at the greatest speed possible, constrained with limits that it doesn't wear me out.

    I noticed a need for both. But then, I found out that I should Judge when I have need for some wandering, relatively undirected thought processes, and when I have need for more something more directed. I should then choose either of the two modes of action depending on what kind of tasks are more pressing at the moment: those that need P-type brainstorming, or those that need J-type decisiveness.

    I've been a close J-P case for my adult life, this is just a more balanced result I've had on this. So, in my opinion, directionless wandering and haphazard thought processes should be subservient to some greater context, some purpose and some plan.

    Both are needed, I'd just put my J to control my P.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  3. #3
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    I've been a close J-P case for my adult life, this is just a more balanced result I've had on this. So, in my opinion, directionless wandering and haphazard thought processes should be subservient to some greater context, some purpose and some plan.

    Both are needed, I'd just put my J to control my P.
    That's probably a good thing for you, both socially and in your own balance. Because when is balance not a good thing?

  4. #4
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    I disagree that Judgers get more done.

    I have done multitasking and succeeded to reach most of the goals in life that I wanted to reach. Very detailed oriented J person would be in trouble with such big picture multitasking things. (I think.) It's just up to your own motivation.

    Structure is not always the thing. Sometimes things get better done with....YES the intuition and improvising! And when a change of plans is needed P's move forward faster.

  5. #5
    Member skip's Avatar
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    Judgers will often get more done than Perceivers.
    So beautifully typical. Perceivers are getting stuff done even when it doesn't look like it to judgers. You're trying to apply your definition of "getting things done" to us and that doesn't work.

  6. #6

    Default Judgers and percievers have different "rails"

    There is structure to how perceivers operate. You can call it being "response-ready." Perhaps just a high-level plan. The details are not "bound" till the time of action, because they cannot be predicted, and there are far too many contingencies to consider. This is especially the case in "troubleshooting" situations. Remember what happened to the best laid plans of Rumpelstiltskin?

    The role that a "plan" has to an xNTJ, say is taken up by an "understanding" by an xNTP. Other types will have their various forms of judgment.

    As an INTP, the way I prepare is to learn as much as I possibly can about the types of things I will encounter on a day to day basis. This involves some high-level planning, but fairly little detailed planning. If I have a working understanding of the "principles" behind what I face, then I will do well.

    Frankly, the problems I like to work on are design problems. If I could already tell you what I needed to do and when, I would have scripted it up, and I would not need to be there. In other words, by the time I come up with a "plan," I am basically done.

    However, as an NT, I compulsively stretch myself, and often put myself beyond my depth--that gets me in some amounts of trouble.

    IMO, it is better to stick to one's natural style.

    However, you may be right in getting things done in general, since design problems are actually a rarity in life.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
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  7. #7
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Meh. It depends. I'm a horrible multi-tasker and there are things I won't even start if I know I won't be able to finish them in a set time period. I know Ps who get more done than I do because they have more energy and they get stuff done without really having a plan. If I don't have a plan, I just drift.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #8
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    No, not sex (at least not that I know of). What I mean is that Judgers will often get more done than Perceivers. I've been experimenting recently; going with the flow - moving without a plan - and thinking on my feet. And I've recognised that structure increases efficiency in accomplishment all the time. It's not some bias against Perceivers; I simply find that with a plan, one can achieve more, and one is very rarely susceptible to doing things one should not, because one already has a plan. Without a plan, one feels without obligation, and hence free, to do what they want when they want. With a plan of action, guilt that one has not done what one set out to do ensures that one does it; in other words, one won't go off the rails. Essentially, you're forcing yourself to adapt to the task at hand as opposed to taking the Perceiver's route of adapting the task to one's mindframe. I'm not saying it's "bad" or "worse" than what the Judger does; it's simply less effective in getting things done IMO. Perhaps the Judging route sacrifices low stress levels for a more accomplished life. I don't know. That's another topic.

    ETA: One other thing to mention is that I'm not implying that Judgers do a better job of what they do than do Perceivers, or even that it is equal to the Perceiver's doing a job. The Perceiver might well do a better job. All I'm saying is that Judgers are better at doing more stuff in a given amount of time because they have structure.
    This is why ENTJs make good field marshals and INTPs do well advising them.

    The very instance you make a plan you limit the possibilities, or your awareness of them. That's fine IF IT'S RIGHT.

    You know those days, this is type based and not personal knowledge for obvious reasons, when you made a plan, started executing the plan only to become frustrated, or worse, cock it all up? Well if you have a good advisor at your side then they reduce the number of mistakes and they quite often come up with solutions that no plan would attempt and reveal new methods and such.

    I do agree that working within a structure gets structured jobs done faster. Working within a structure also allows structured people to work faster. This is not the same as saying that structure is the best for everything.

    Each to their own.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #9
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    No, not sex (at least not that I know of). What I mean is that Judgers will often get more done than Perceivers. I've been experimenting recently; going with the flow - moving without a plan - and thinking on my feet. And I've recognised that structure increases efficiency in accomplishment all the time. It's not some bias against Perceivers; I simply find that with a plan, one can achieve more, and one is very rarely susceptible to doing things one should not, because one already has a plan. Without a plan, one feels without obligation, and hence free, to do what they want when they want. With a plan of action, guilt that one has not done what one set out to do ensures that one does it; in other words, one won't go off the rails. Essentially, you're forcing yourself to adapt to the task at hand as opposed to taking the Perceiver's route of adapting the task to one's mindframe. I'm not saying it's "bad" or "worse" than what the Judger does; it's simply less effective in getting things done IMO. Perhaps the Judging route sacrifices low stress levels for a more accomplished life. I don't know. That's another topic.

    ETA: One other thing to mention is that I'm not implying that Judgers do a better job of what they do than do Perceivers, or even that it is equal to the Perceiver's doing a job. The Perceiver might well do a better job. All I'm saying is that Judgers are better at doing more stuff in a given amount of time because they have structure.
    Well, of course you're going to work optimally within structure. All that means is that you are, in fact, a J. Go take an extreme P and watch them wilt as they look around them and see a bunch of boundaries that constrict their abilities and make them feel suffocated: see how they work within structure.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  10. #10
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    I do agree with Ezra actually:

    Judgers get more done, when the structure is known already: because then, they can implement, which is their natural strength--the follow through.

    Perceivers are weak on that. However, Perceivers are strong on one thing which Judgers are weak at: Initiation.

    Because often, it is Perceivers, especially NPs, who possess the initial spark, the idea, that leads to the plan that can be implemented.

    That's why in a team, the NPs tend to function best as spontaneous sparks and ideas generator, whilst the Js function best at implementation.

    I know for myself, i'm very weak in follow through; which is why i like to work in a team where the Js are open-minded, able to listen to ideas. They present the problems, i provide the spark of solution, and we brainstorm what is workable, what is not (since often, the INTP's ideas may be too off-the-wall), and then, the implementation is left to them.

    Nothing right or wrong, as Ezra has observed. It's about best-fit in a team: what the team requires, and how best to utilise the strength of each member. A good leader would realise that, rather than force-fitting a P into a J role, or a J into a P role.

    edit: and yes, usehername, you're absolutely right. My P is definitely confirmed, and i wilted faster than a cut daisy with no water in hot sun in my last workplace, with an extremely J boss of an ESTJ. EVERYTHING had to be planned. you couldn't even go from one to ten, you had to go from one, two, three.....*faints*
    You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
    They called me the hyacinth girl.
    Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
    Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
    Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
    Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
    Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

    --T.S Eliot, The Wasteland

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