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  1. #31
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Fair point.

  2. #32
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    I disagree completely with Ezra's first post. A J type will be able to accomplish the most in regard to its 1st function. Clearly if it's work we're talking about, then generally Te types will have an edge. Would you say an ENTJ is able to be more sociable than an ESFP? If we consider sociability and forming connections with people an ESFP's job, the his-her productivity will be generally much higher than the one of an ENTJ.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  3. #33
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I disagree completely with Ezra's first post. A J type will be able to accomplish the most in regard to its 1st function. Clearly if it's work we're talking about, then generally Te types will have an edge. Would you say an ENTJ is able to be more sociable than an ESFP? If we consider sociability and forming connections with people an ESFP's job, the his-her productivity will be generally much higher than the one of an ENTJ.
    What about an ENFJ though?

    (You may think I'm just playing devil's advocate but I couldn't possibly comment )
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #34
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    What about an ENFJ though?

    (You may think I'm just playing devil's advocate but I couldn't possibly comment )
    IMHO ENFJs have a very different form of sociability than ESFPs. ENFJs tend to be slightly more elitistic in choosing their friendship and more educationally orientated whereas ESFPs are more democratic. Which gives to the two types a completely different domain of operation. Not to mention that in order to deal with people it's often more convenient to be flexible rather than very scheduled.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  5. #35
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    You know I agree with Ezra about J's getting more done and being more productive -- in certain environments. The ENTJ is nicknamed "The Executive" for a reason, this type excels in trad corporate environments -- ENTJs were practically custom made for such a workplace. It's a regimented environment with extremely clear hierarchies and divisions of power and success is very easily and closely measured. ENTJs kick ass in corporate environments...and probably in the miltary as well...and I've said it once and I'll say it again, y'all can be terrifying.

    And I do agree that structure and goals and a degree of familiarity and stability give people the tools and space to grow and reach. Familiarity and structure are basic psychological precepts for nurturing healthy egos and confidence levels I think -- in animals as well as people.

    Were you suggesting expresing as a J is the most productive you can aspire to? In terms of creating structure, following through with plans, creating timelines and goals? Because that's already commonly accepted in society. BTW, I bought 'Total Workday Control' for my last job! Hahahahaha, I bought a book to learn how to master Outlook???? Hhahaha, omg, I never even opened the book. Holy crap, I hated that job.

    And having said all that above -- different skills sets fit different roles and needs.

    When faced with chaos, unpredictability, or just plain rebelliousness, sometimes a need for control in a 'J' sense becomes a hindrance and counterproductive. Especially when it comes to dealing with people. That's why like Xander mentioned, ENTJ's excel and can be very productive in very structured environments. But most of the world is not structured. Or else order looks chaotic, chaos theory, finding symmetry in seeming disorder in nature, etc. etc. etc. Alright I'm fading, I'm going to bed but that's my last word!

    J's most productive? Sometimes. Some situations favor them. But some tasks really favor 'P'.

    I actually think most entrepeneurs at least in high-tech are P's (NP specifically), who really build the bones and blaze the way for great new ideas or business plan, and then put a J in charge of running the day to day operations. Entrepeneurs have to be very comfortable and agile and one step ahead of the curve in the opposite of structured and predictable environments and withstand a lot of ups and downs before success is reached. Aside from tenacity, you need patience...and um...I don't think patience is a strong J trait. I'm not saying that's a bad thing in itself but I think you'd probably die of a heart attack from impatience and uncertainty and a desire to control all factors during certain endeavors. P would excel and be much more productive in such a scenario.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

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  6. #36
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    IMHO ENFJs have a very different form of sociability than ESFPs. ENFJs tend to be slightly more elitistic in choosing their friendship and more educationally orientated whereas ESFPs are more democratic. Which gives to the two types a completely different domain of operation. Not to mention that in order to deal with people it's often more convenient to be flexible rather than very scheduled.
    Bitch please! Don't bring socionics into this.

  7. #37
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Were you suggesting expresing as a J is the most productive you can aspire to? In terms of creating structure, following through with plans, creating timelines and goals?
    I don't quite understand the question.

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