User Tag List

12 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 13

Thread: Pe and Pi

  1. #1
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    3,690

    Default Pe and Pi

    Can anyone direct me to some worthwhile definitions of extraverted perception and/or introverted perception apart from their S/N distinctions? I'm interested in getting a handle on exactly what 'perception' is and what the E/I attitude specifications are (e.g. what does Se have in common with Ne, but not Si).
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  2. #2
    Senior Member Lily flower's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    2
    Posts
    931

    Default

    Is there a Pe or Pi?

  3. #3
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    Calling @Seymour and @OrangeAppled: is this something either of you can point Z Buck to?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #4
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEI Ni
    Posts
    7,661

    Default

    Well, Jung himself did describe these. Look here under "Recapitulation of Extraverted Irrational Types" and "Recapitulation of Introverted Irrational Types".

    As a side note, IMO, I see each type having "overlaps" (for lack of a better word) with the others. For example, both Se & Si have the function of percieving sensory data, but Si & Ni, being Pi, both have the introverted attitude of Pi & view things in terms of their inner world (they just view different "things", either the tangible or intangible implications). Both Fe & Fi have the function of assigning value, but Fi & Ti are both Ji & so they both define things in terms of their inner world (they just use different ways of classifying, either with value or factual qualities).
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  5. #5
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/so
    Posts
    1,565

    Default

    I don't have anything more than OA does... certainly haven't run across anyone more recent that talks much about Ji and Pi as categories.

    I find it interesting that Jung's introverted sensation description seems awfully mystical and artistic compared with the more prosaic modern descriptions.

    By more current definitions, it does seem like Pe involves the perception of new external events and possibilities, while Pi involves the activation of pre-existing internal meanings and perspectives. In that sense, Si seems to focus more on the activation and relationship of the sensation to pre-existing meaning (known facts, traditions, previous emotional associations).

    Ni seems to sift perceptions through awareness of the patterns and images those perceptions evoke internally. In some sense, those patterns and images pre-exist the stimulation, and are perceived as an sudden awareness of an already existing truth, rather than the creation of a new possibility (even though objectively the insight is new).

  6. #6
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    3,690

    Default

    @Lily flower: Pi and Pe just refer to introverted perception (Ni and Si) and extraverted perception (Ne and Se).

    @OrangeAppled: thanks for the link, I’ll check it out.
    (And thanks @PeaceBaby, for paging some folks.)

    I think I’ve got abstract understanding of them, but I was looking for already articulated descriptions to save me the trouble of trying to figure out how to articulate it myself. I did a quick google search which went nowhere fast, and it occurred to me that maybe some people here already know where I could find such a thing. Or maybe even throw out some quicky description of their own. And I realize I could have just gotten Jung’s Psychological Types off the shelf- but I have a bad habit of getting distracted and I’d have forgotten why I got it off the shelf (and gotten interested in something else in the book) before finding exactly what I’m looking for. Lol.

    What got me thinking about this in the first place is the mention of “Je is always right”. Basically I agree- but something about it falls short. I’m more inclined to say “Je is set”, or determined or something. It doesn’t care about being ‘right’ so much as having enough ‘rightness’ that it won’t have to improvise or change suddenly. Since it works from the outside going in- it seeks unchangeable basics but not perfection, and nuances can be added afterward (whereas Ji doesn't like establishing anything imperfect in the external world, it prefers to perfect the 'rightness' as it's being established). That probably doesn’t make sense, but anyway, it got me thinking about what fundamental differences there are to be found between Js and Ps (hence the interest in Pe and Pi).

    edit: thanks @Seymour!
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  7. #7
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 so/sp
    Posts
    2,912

    Default

    I've been thinking the same thing lately @Z Buck McFate. There's so much talk about Je and Ji qualities but you don't hear much about Pe and Pi. I actually had a quick search a few weeks ago on the subject but couldn't find anything.

    There's one interesting thing I remember coming across regarding Pi (which is sort of in line with what @Seymour said). I was reading an interview with a plainly Ni-dom or aux musician, who was talking about his songwriting process. He said it was like trying to piece together clues - that it's like the song is already subconsciously written and he's simply trying to remember it. He also said that just as you can't force a memory, you can't force the song to come out, instead you must wait for it to reveal itself.

    I thought that was rather fascinating, seeing as Si is also so strongly associated with memory. It made me wonder if Si is like trying to remember and make sense of what has happened, and in similar terms, Ni is like trying to reveal and make sense of what will happen.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  8. #8
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    i don't have any good sites, but i like thinking of them as expansionist and reductionist. Pe seeks the whole puzzle by getting all the pieces... Pi seeks the whole puzzle by gathering all the clues from a single piece.

    am looking forward to reading more from others

  9. #9
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    What got me thinking about this in the first place is the mention of “Je is always right”.
    I just use it as a shorthand of my perception really ... it is more nuanced in my head.

    It's like, Je starts from a position of authority, of rightness. A default position. An assumptive position almost.

    It doesn’t care about being ‘right’ so much as having enough ‘rightness’ that it won’t have to improvise or change suddenly.
    Yes, I agree - a Te dom is not so heavily invested in being right that the facts cannot readily convince them they are wrong, even though they really sound like they are. The advantage to convince a Te-er otherwise is that Te is focussed on the tangible, therefore you can point to real stuff in the real world and the Te person will just say, "Huh, that's right then" and integrate that new data readily into their knowledge database. Oh, they might wriggle and squirm while you convince them as they try to reassert their "rightness". But, it doesn't leave them flailing to see where they erred in the first place, because their thoughts never start from a position of indecision.

    Fe is trickier ... less tangible. Or, at least, what you can see is not always what you are dealing with. Lots of stuff beneath the surface, and stuff that is not easily verifiable.

    Since it works from the outside going in- it seeks unchangeable basics but not perfection, and nuances can be added afterward (whereas Ji doesn't like establishing anything imperfect in the external world, it prefers to perfect the 'rightness' as it's being established).
    Yes, I like that, will think on that some more too.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #10
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEI Ni
    Posts
    7,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I thought that was rather fascinating, seeing as Si is also so strongly associated with memory. It made me wonder if Si is like trying to remember and make sense of what has happened, and in similar terms, Ni is like trying to reveal and make sense of what will happen.
    I like this...mainly because Pi is really about one's impressions of things, whereas Pe is about external possibilities. Of course, this adds Je into it, because you're describing some reasoning in there too by "making sense" of things (being a Ji-dom, it's hard to fathom NOT thinking rationally first & foremost). Si-dom are often described as enjoying reviewing what they know, which is really just going over it, not arranging it in any order according to logic or value.

    Similar to how Je judges using external criteria & seeks to create & establish viable systems, Pe creates & searches for what is possible in reality; whereas Pi explores internal impressions & interpretations, making it less visible, much as Ji is about creating & perfecting systems in concept & also less visible in action. For the P types though, things just pop up & are followed, which is easiest to imagine when you think of it in terms of Se-doms exploring literal sensory experiences. J types use lines of reason to explore things, because they're trying to make sense, not just experience or become aware of.

    Jung also describes Ni as pursuing the inner images much as the Ne type runs after external possibilities. Again, that arrangement into categories is not there (that's where Je/Ji comes in).

    -----------

    This discussion vaguely connects to a breakdown of Jung's wording in a Ni description I was mentally doing the other day. I was putting the same thought in different words to clarify it to myself (this is a typical exercise of a fun filled day with moi). It provides a nice comparison/contrast of Si/Ni which I think sheds light on what Pi is.


    Whereas introverted sensation is mainly confined to the perception of particular innervation phenomena by way of the unconscious, and does not go beyond them, intuition represses this side of the subjective factor and perceives the image which has really occasioned the innervation.
    My simplification of this using less dense language:
    Whereas introverted sensation is mainly focused on the perception of particular, stimulating & impressive facts, occurrences, or circumstances via the unconscious, and does not go beyond them, intuition represses this side and instead perceives the archaic mental image which has actually caused the stimulation/impression.

    And my long-winded way of interpreting this:
    The Si type perceives their subjective impression of tangible experience & facts & even people ("the object"). Their impression is still of the literal objects, but they prefer to focus on their own interpretive view of them. This is why Si is compared to impressionistic art; it's reality through the highly idiosyncratic view of the individual. It is colored by the unconscious, which determines what details the individual responds to & focuses on. Ni ignores all this in favor of going directly to the "image" from the unconscious that stirs the impression of the object. The image amounts to a symbol representing the essence of that object. This is why the Ni type experiences their iNtuitions as "objective", because it's not about their personal impression (as it is with the Si type), but an image representing a universal, core "truth" about the object arising from the collective unconscious. However, the individual is still interpreting this image & its "truth", and that's when it becomes highly subjective (as does every introvert's experience of the collective unconscious).
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

Similar Threads

  1. [Jung] What are Pe, Pi, Je, and Ji?
    By Babybop in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 02-12-2016, 05:28 PM
  2. Je/Pe and essential relationship to structure
    By Video in forum What's my Type?
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-27-2013, 04:29 PM
  3. The purpose of Pi, Je, Pe, and Ji
    By Robopop in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 08-12-2011, 11:48 AM
  4. first-borns, family responsibility, and Pi vs Pe
    By the state i am in in forum Enneagram
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-19-2009, 11:14 PM
  5. The "divide" is Pe and Pi, not N or S
    By Venom in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 10-27-2009, 11:12 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO