User Tag List

12 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 14

  1. #1
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,991

    Default Are Jung's Functions about Humans, Robots, or Neither?

    Excerpted from: Was that really me?: how everyday stress brings out our hidden personality By Naomi L. Quenk

    PP 137-38 recounts the story of an INTP mother who is having difficulty with her teenaged son who had a recent stay in a mental institution. After he was released from the hospital, she began to realize he was falling back on his pre-institution badness (staying out overnight, etc.).

    His INTP mother tried logic and reasoning on him for a few days, but he only gave her rebellious responses in return. Finally, she just broke down and sobbed to him,

    "Jim, I can't tell you how awful this is for me. At work, I can't concentrate. I'm distracted all the time. When I know it's almost time for you to get out of school, I start getting sick to my stomach. I can't eat lunch; I become ill. I'm so worried about what might be happening to you, that you might be hurt or in trouble and I wouldn't even know."

    Seeing how he was hurting his mother this way, Jim relented and actually began looking for ways to work on his problems that she never would have thought up.

    Her explanation for her success: "What I now see is that my long, careful appeals to his reason - his inferior function - had not worked. They hadn't ever worked... In despair and helplessness, I fell into the grip of my inferior function and expressed spontaneous Feeling, something he had rarely, if ever, seen me do. This spoke to his Dominant function and brought out his truest judgment - that he loved me and wanted me to be happy. Every other consideration fell by the wayside; all he wanted to do was relieve the genuine anguish he sensed in me."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #2
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,991

    Default

    I just wanted to point out this Naomi L. Quenk book in particular. The real-life examples in this book are rife with examples of functions coming out as feelings - not as "archetypes" and "images." People are treated, not in a quaint Jungian sense, as robots with functions, but as humans with feelings.

    There are many good points to be made about the anecdotes related in this book.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #3
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 so/sp
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    2,484

    Default

    The functions are about the other dimension. You know, that one where humans actually make sense



    ...Eh, I don't think Jung made people robots with functions.... the functions themselves are just really abstract things but I think they were still described as pretty human. What that excerpt does is give a example of balancing one's perspectives with another's in a very real sort of situation.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,991

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LunaLuminosity View Post
    The functions are about the other dimension. You know, that one where humans actually make sense



    ...Eh, I don't think Jung made people robots with functions.... the functions themselves are just really abstract things but I think they were still described as pretty human. What that excerpt does is give a example of balancing one's perspectives with another's in a very real sort of situation.
    Of course the context of it all is the human psyche. But the functions are in no way described as human when the vast arena of emotions is omitted from his analysis of the psyche. His references to archetypes and images are, in my mind, self-descriptions. Consider for example the hallucinatory phase Jung went through when he was 38. And his focus on dream imagery relates back to some intense dreams he had as a small child. All this focus on the unconscious doesn't necessarily relate to anybody else. His lack of feeling analysis is just representative of the way Jung saw himself, thus how he related to everybody else. Jung's greatest patient was himself.

    I recommend the book, not so much for its analysis of inferiors and shadows, but for revealing, as you pointed out, the other dimension. But that dimension is the most important.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #5
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    MBTI
    intp
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx
    Posts
    7,823

    Default

    I dont get where you got that robot association to jung..

    Positive as well as negative occurrences can constellate the inferior counter-function. When this happens, sensitiveness appears. Sensi-tiveness is a sure sign of of the presence of inferiority. This provides the psychological basis for discord and misunderstanding, not only as between two people, but also in ourselves. The essence of the inferior function is autonomy: it is independent, it attacks, it fascinates and so spins us about that we are no longer masters of ourselves and can no longer rightly distinguish between ourselves and others["The Problem of the Attitude-Type," CW 7, par. 85.]
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  6. #6
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,991

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    I dont get where you got that robot association to jung..
    So you found one human quote.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #7
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    MBTI
    intp
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx
    Posts
    7,823

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    So you found one human quote.
    This human stuff is what the functions are about from jungs point of view..

    You not knowing it, doesent mean that its not true.

    And that quote is one of the main ideas about the inferior.

    If you look typology from superficial point of view, you need to do some reduction. This kinda means that you are forced to reduce what makes human mind a human mind, because human mind is really complex system. Now if you look at computers/robot "mind", its basically an human mind that has been reduced to a point where its not seen even as a living thing.
    In order to explain an human mind you need to do some reduction, not just because we dont know the whole mind, but also because its too much external info for people to handle. Jung does an exceptionally good work at explaining the human mind as close as it possibly can be explained AND still keep the human aspect while doing so.
    Now if you just read some part here and there and some crappy superficial internet sources without ever seeing the whole picture, your view on his work isnt complete and will seem like some computer system to you. Even tho it seems like a computer system to you, it doesent mean that its true, you would know that if you had understood what E, I and those images are about
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  8. #8
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,991

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    This human stuff is what the functions are about from jungs point of view..

    You not knowing it, doesent mean that its not true.

    And that quote is one of the main ideas about the inferior.
    I know, it's just as described in the book "Was That Really Me?" It's a book that somehow manages to talk about functions on the human level instead of skirting around the real subject of it all.

    And anyway, I can easily discuss the topic of acting out of character ("was that really me?") without reference to any functions. And I am suspicious of trying to reduce human behavior to a pattern because of the ad hoc nature of finding only those examples which fit the pattern.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    If you look typology from superficial point of view, you need to do some reduction. This kinda means that you are forced to reduce what makes human mind a human mind, because human mind is really complex system. Now if you look at computers/robot "mind", its basically an human mind that has been reduced to a point where its not seen even as a living thing.
    In order to explain an human mind you need to do some reduction, not just because we dont know the whole mind, but also because its too much external info for people to handle. Jung does an exceptionally good work at explaining the human mind as close as it possibly can be explained AND still keep the human aspect while doing so.
    Now if you just read some part here and there and some crappy superficial internet sources without ever seeing the whole picture, your view on his work isnt complete and will seem like some computer system to you. Even tho it seems like a computer system to you, it doesent mean that its true, you would know that if you had understood what E, I and those images are about
    I'm pretty sure I explained what those images are about? Didn't I say above they were about Jung's personal method of thinking? Because, I'll tell you, I get no sense of recognition from Psychological Types. But if I ever start hallucinating, I'll be sure to check it out again.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #9
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    MBTI
    intp
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx
    Posts
    7,823

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    I know, it's just as described in the book "Was That Really Me?" It's a book that somehow manages to talk about functions on the human level instead of skirting around the real subject of it all.

    And anyway, I can easily discuss the topic of acting out of character ("was that really me?") without reference to any functions. And I am suspicious of trying to reduce human behavior to a pattern because of the ad hoc nature of finding only those examples which fit the pattern.



    I'm pretty sure I explained what those images are about? Didn't I say above they were about Jung's personal method of thinking? Because, I'll tell you, I get no sense of recognition from Psychological Types. But if I ever start hallucinating, I'll be sure to check it out again.
    Yea the difference isnt about human vs robot level. Its just that that book of yours tries to explain this stuff on behavioristic level using real life examples of behavior motivated by function, while jung looks at this from the point of view of depth psychology.

    Looks like you have hard time seeing the human aspect without examples of behavior, that doesent mean that its not there. For me jungs point of view seems way more human, than behavioristic models of typology, behaviorism is qhats missing the human aspect imo, since its just an reaction, which usually is pretty automatic and only looks at the whole thing from reductionistic point of view. I mean i could program a robot to do what the example at op did with Fe, thats because the example is missing what makes us human, the depth part of the psyche, which is what jung deals with.

    And your idea of definition of the word image is false.

    I wrote this on another forum on other subject, but you might get some idea of what the image means:

    Yea i didnt meanpicture like visual images, but mental images, the sort of nonvisual images your consciousness perceives, when you see or hear something.For example when you hear someone screaming a certain way, you might get an image of someone being in urgent need of help. Without this image attached to the screaming(or everything else you perceive) the noice would be meaningless static, something thatnew born babies are experiencing.

    What i think the consciousness is observing are this sort of images. Even the sounds you hear with your ears are these images, same with visual perceptions. Take the ames room illusion as an example, ifitwas the actual outside world youperceived,there wouldnt be any illusion, but because you are using an already existing image of a room in your perception, you see the people changing sizes,evenifyouknewthatits justan illusion.

    Naturally the images are created by stimuli coming from the eyes,mixed with your already existing images and some of these images are so deeply rooted, like the image of a room, that its not altered by external world, instead the externalworld tries to fit itself to this image.
    And if you dont know what ames room is:

    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  10. #10
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,991

    Default

    Is there a difference between the Ames room illusion and the moon illusion? "The moon illusion is one of the most famous of all illusions. Stated simply, the full moon, when just above the horizon, appears much larger than when it is overhead. Yet the moon, a quarter of a million miles away from the earth, always subtends the same angle wherever it is in the sky, roughly 0.5 degrees."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 34
    Last Post: 12-10-2011, 04:19 AM
  2. Cognitive functions & preference for quiet or not so quiet study environments
    By Usehername in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 11-02-2008, 03:16 PM
  3. Why are philosophers so curious about god?
    By Nocapszy in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 10-08-2008, 04:57 PM
  4. [NT] What are you most concerned about?
    By Lucifer in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 10-03-2008, 05:52 PM
  5. N: what are we actually speaking about ?
    By developer in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 09-15-2007, 05:05 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO