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  1. #11
    Senior Member Silveresque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    Crows nest functions is a theory in Lenore Thompson's book that you use the opposite functions to the top two in situations the primary two don't cut it.

    So I would use Ti in place of Fi.
    Ne in place of Se.

    Makes sense to me that I could more easily flip from Fi to Ti cognitively. Seems it would take less effort.
    That would explain a lot for me.

  2. #12
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    I find myself using Fi quite a bit. Se not so much.
    Sure you arent just usimg Ti abstraction on Fe empathizes?
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  3. #13
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Here is a jungian view on these crowsnest/doubleagent/shadow functions:

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.nyaap.org/jung-lexicon/d/
    Differentiation The separation of parts from a whole, necessary for conscious access to the psychological functions.

    "So long as a function is still so fused with one or more other functions-thinking with feeling, feeling with sensation, etc.-that it is unable to operate on its own, it is in an archaic condition, i.e., not differentiated, not separated from the whole as a special part and existing by itself. Undifferentiated thinking is incapable of thinking apart from other functions; it is continually mixed up with sensations, feelings, intuitions, just as undifferentiated feeling is mixed up with sensations and fantasies."["Definitions," CW 6, par. 705.]

    An undifferentiated function is characterized by ambivalence (every position entails its own negative), which leads to characteristic inhibitions in its use.

    "Differentiation consists in the separation of the function from other functions, and in the separation of its individual parts from each other. Without differentiation direction is impossible, since the direction of a function towards a goal depends on the elimination of anything irrelevant. Fusion with the irrelevant precludes direction; only a differentiated function is capable of being directed."[ Ibid., par. 705.]
    dom function is most differentiated and other functions level of differentation is in MBTI terms how developed the function is. undifferentiated functions merge with other functions, for example in INTPs case Fe mixing with Ti and therefore it looks like Fi..
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  4. #14
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Crows nest function was the point for me when Jung not only had left the realm of empirical argumentation but logic as well
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  5. #15
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    I don't use functions, functions use me.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

    Quinlan's Creations

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    I don't use functions, functions use me.
    Like Venom used Spiderman?

  7. #17
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Crows nest function was the point for me when Jung not only had left the realm of empirical argumentation but logic as well


    when you know how brains work, you start to see how much better jungs model fits.

    Subliminal perception explains it pretty well. first of all, like jung said about consciousness; "consciousness possesses a level of intensity, so all weak concepts remain unconscious".
    "unconscious contains all fantasy images that have yet to encounter suitable conditions to become conscious"
    "unconscious is ever present and influences out conscious life"

    The deal with subliminal perceptions(including seeing subliminal messages) is that the stimuli is so weak that it doesent reach other areas that would make it conscious, but nevertheless it has an modifying effect on that certain area that processes it, but which doesent communicate it much further. it might communicate it to close areas in cerebral cortex, but not to deeper areas on the brain(which combine all info and thus forms consciousness).
    This same effect happens not only with perceptions, but all information exchange in brains, so you might have a thought, which signal is suppressed before it enters consciousness.
    Now when it comes to these undeveloped functions, the areas on cerebral cortex which processes the undeveloped function, doesent have direct(or strong direct) link to deeper areas of the brain where consciousness is formed. but they might communicate its message to nearby regions on cerebral cortex.
    But because you only come conscious of the last signal sent to areas forming consciousness, you dont become conscious of the undeveloped function, instead the area which is stronger and able to come into consciousness is processing signal from the weaker area.
    Example of those would be your visual cortex. you only become conscious of the image that has been already processed, and not about the half processed images.
    These undeveloped functions only make a weak signal because, first of all the areas doesent get much imput and therefore they also send a weak signal.
    If we take INTPs and Fe, which is basically(or mostly) area that processes social feedback. INTPs with undeveloped Fe doesent register social feedback easily, but when there is a strong social feedback(needs to be stronger than for ESFJ for example) they become very conscious of it, but dont know what to think of this social feedback, doesent understand what it means etc. because the area itself doesent process the info well(low amount of neurons in that area). and because they dont know what to think of it and get confused about it, they try to do further processing with the info and prefer to do the further processing with Ti as its the most developed function of INTP. this means that Fe is processed by Ti and looks like Fi, but Fi is totally different process that doesent even include social feedback.
    You should also check this topic about what E and I actually are about in neurological level:
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...gian-view.html

    That stuff with brain function in the lenores book has been debunked by dario nardi with his eeg studies on typology(im pretty sure you are aware of that study)
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  8. #18
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Just dont get to fixated on that brain idea of yours yet, you know many great scientists failed because they fixated into one direction to much and lost sense of the big picture. We have no idea yet how brain impulses are translated from purely electrical into a conciencse, in the end it could be all be different than what we expected and that what we have seen now so far is only an interpretation from our current understanding.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #19
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Just dont get to fixated on that brain idea of yours yet, you know many great scientists failed because they fixated into one direction to much and lost sense of the big picture. We have no idea yet how brain impulses are translated from purely electrical into a conciencse, in the end it could be all be different than what we expected and that what we have seen now so far is only an interpretation from our current understanding.
    I think we do have quite bit of ideas how its done

    http://thebrain.mcgill.ca/flash/i/i_...12_cr_con.html
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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