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  1. #31
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    Hm, yes, crazy MBTI.



    Ego creates complexes on the basis of primitive archetypes and then defends these complexes against anxiety-inducing experiences such that the psychological outcome is more pleasant than the anxiety, and yet the complex remains in place. One of these defense mechanisms is displacement. The cognitive process that created displacement in the first place no longer exists, it doesn't have to, and so it goes into the unconscious where it resides with the archetype, such as the image of a father or father-figure.

    But the cognitive process itself was the product of functions. For example, if one is psychologically replacing someone with a father-figure, then originally this involved the Si function.
    You got this all wrong, ego doesent create complexes etc etc. all of this is totally wrong lol.

    There is this thing called psyche, which involves; body, collective unconscious, personal unconscious and consciousness.

    Collective unconscious is the part of us that we all share, jung said that its on our genes. structures within the collective unconscious are called archetypes. inherited parts of the psyche, structuring patterns of psychological performance linked to instincts, hypothetical entity, irresentable in itself and only evident trought its manifestations. archetype is symbol producing machine.

    These archetypes usually have an effect on already existing complexes or new complexes may born from associating manifestations on some particular thing.

    Personal unconscious contains all memories and fantasies either repressed or just havent met suitable conditions yet(latter is the same with archetypes). structures within the personal unconscious is called complexes. "clusters of feeling toned associations around common theme", this common theme can be anything from money to your favorite shirt to your mom, can be both good and negative.

    Archetypes can attach themselves to these complexes and shape it. Like if you know a girl named amie, she seems very different person to you if shes just anybody or if the amie complex has been affected by anima, even tho shes still the same person, you just see her differently, because the amie complex(or feeling toned associations around it) has been affected by anima.

    Then there is the consciousness. consciousness possesses a level of intensity, so all weak concepts remain unconscious. consciousness deters incompatible material and these remain unconscious(this could be inferior function or anything else outside functions). consciousness holds a momentary adaptation to situation.
    Ego is the structure in consciousness, jung listed 5 core functions of ego, stability of personality(it doesent want to make you switch personality every day, so it doesent want to see you as a feeler either, because it sees you as T), stability of identity(you feel yourself after you wake up the next morning, not michael jackson), cognition(you know how to calculate 1 + 1 etc. but also all other conscious evaluation, judging, making sense of perceptions etc), executive functioning(you know how to walk etc to survive your day), reality testing(expect and obey laws of physics).

    Now when we derive a complex from out unconscious, the ego takes a beating from the complex and suffers from reduced ability to operate appropiately. complex sort of steals the show and later we might notice that we behaved in unusual ways. its that the behavior of our normal personality was replaced by behavior motivated by complex, this is usually negative behavior, but quite often pretty useful and needed for the situation.

    Then there is this thing called compensation, which means balancing, adjusting and supplementing. psyche tries to compensate one sidedness of the consciousness. ego is compensated by the unconscious(collective and personal). cba to explain more about this, but this is why the unconscious functions want to come into consciousness, why archetypes appear etc.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  2. #32
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    I read Jung's part of Man and His Symbols and was sort-of buying into his deep belief that dreams are like bridges into ancient archetypal images and themes. Then I heard about current dream research that basically says dreams are related directly to short term memory retention; our brain's attempt to figure out what and how to store memories. It made me question Jung's ideas.

    I wonder now if his archetypes never were really the sacred stuff of universal proportions he thought they were, but man's common and recurring themes for so much of time. Leading me to wonder if archetypes are just representations of man's theme as man moves through time, advancing and collectively changing as he goes along.

    In short, does Jung attribute too much sacred other-worldly-ness to archetypes, based on his insights at the time and historically. Do archetypes actually result from the way ego uses functions to deal with life events? Therefore, as life events and circumstances change over time, as they will for the human experience, won't archetypes necessarily change as well to reflect that?

    functions + ego influence (behaviors?) = archetype ???
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  3. #33
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    I think the tert tends to orient more for most people in healthy states in the opposite attitude from the dominant...I think Jung had it 'right' from the beginning, if what you say is true and he changed his stance later. I do think neurotic conditions are more likely to arise when the tert is in the same attitude of the dominant......I started a thread about it all a while back.


    Yeah, I saw that about the 'persona', one his his archetypes, right? I'm trying to discern for myself the core personality of a person, and what makes up that core personality. And where the ego and other facets of personality fall in relation to our core, or innate, being. I think our core personality is comprised other factors besides cognitive functions, though I haven't quite figured out how to define them or describe them, or even what 'they' are.

    Do you think cognitive functions can adequately describe a person's innate personality?
    Cba to type much anymore and gotta go to sleep. but persona isnt an archetype, its an complex.

    What comes to all this personality talk, you need to define personality, because there are sooooooooooooooo many ideas of what is personality and they vary to a great degree, so its impossible to say anything if i dont know what you mean with the word personality.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    I read Jung's part of Man and His Symbols and was sort-of buying into his deep belief that dreams are like bridges into ancient archetypal images and themes. Then I heard about current dream research that basically says dreams are related directly to short term memory retention; our brain's attempt to figure out what and how to store memories. It made me question Jung's ideas.

    I wonder now if his archetypes never were really the sacred stuff of universal proportions he thought they were, but man's common and recurring themes for so much of time. Leading me to wonder if archetypes are just representations of man's theme as man moves through time, advancing and collectively changing as he goes along.

    In short, does Jung attribute too much sacred other-worldly-ness to archetypes, based on his insights at the time and historically. Do archetypes actually result from the way ego uses functions to deal with life events? Therefore, as life events and circumstances change over time, as they will for the human experience, won't archetypes necessarily change as well to reflect that?

    functions + ego influence (behaviors?) = archetype ???
    No no no no no no no and no. i can write more tomorrow and explain, but dreams arent just archetypal, they may show you an archetype, but mostly its about stuff in personal unconscious. i have studied dream from modern point of view, the neurology of it etc and jungs ideas and modern view match perfectly, even the archetypal stuff in it
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  5. #35
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    You got this all wrong, ego doesent create complexes etc etc. all of this is totally wrong lol.
    So is your English, but do you see me laughing at that? I wish I had a dime for every one of your misspellings and bad grammar.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  6. #36
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Cba to type much anymore and gotta go to sleep. but persona isnt an archetype, its an complex.

    What comes to all this personality talk, you need to define personality, because there are sooooooooooooooo many ideas of what is personality and they vary to a great degree, so its impossible to say anything if i dont know what you mean with the word personality.

    I guess it depends on how you also define "persona." According to wiki, on the Jungian Archetype page, it is:

    The Persona, to Jung a mere "functional complex ... by no means identical to the individuality", the way we present to the world - a mask which protects the Ego from negative images, and which by post-Jungians is sometimes considered an "archetype ... as a dynamic/structural component of the psyche".


    But I agree with you, I consider a 'persona' to be adopted by a person as a coping mechanism/ or complex.


    I usually mean personality as what nature has given us innately. I'm working out now if that includes our phenotype, which i believe it does. The 'substance' of our minds/psyches; the admixture of our matter and our form (soul) which forms the foundation (which i call core) from which we express ourselves, interact with our world, from which dispositions arise, and behaviors develop. Personality, in the way I mean it, is what we are born into the world with and is not predicated by anything else; it is pure.
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  7. #37
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    No no no no no no no and no. i can write more tomorrow and explain, but dreams arent just archetypal, they may show you an archetype, but mostly its about stuff in personal unconscious. i have studied dream from modern point of view, the neurology of it etc and jungs ideas and modern view match perfectly, even the archetypal stuff in it

    Jung seemed pretty darn clear that dreams were ephemeral and carried ancient archetypal wisdom independent of the individual, but could show the individual, if the individual cared to observe it (with psychological interpretation), a link between his/her mind and a higher wisdom represented by repetitive symbols.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  8. #38
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    Do you have a webpage that discusses this?
    It's basically apart of this whole premise:
    http://www.erictb.info/erica.html
    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    It's still funny to me how amateur typologists argue function usage with the tert function in the same orientation as the dominant function, when Jung believed himself that it was in the opposite orientation....It is an MBTI concept, adapted, basically blindly imo, by practitioners ever since.
    That's best understood in terms of everything that is not differentiated (dominant) collecting in the opposite attitude from the dominant, and the Child complex orienting the tertiary to the dominant attitude.

    As for archetypes, they are basically defined as "a way of organizing human experience that gives it collective meaning". A conglomeration of memories, and images freighted with emotion, which when personalized through experience, become "complexes".
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Jung seemed pretty darn clear that dreams were ephemeral and carried ancient archetypal wisdom independent of the individual, but could show the individual, if the individual cared to observe it (with psychological interpretation), a link between his/her mind and a higher wisdom represented by repetitive symbols.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCaOgaGY6dU

    "dreams reveal complexes and sometimes the archetypal background"

    i wrote in some earlier post on this topic how complexes(which are structures within personal unconscious) get affected by archetypes. so yes dreams might show some archetypal symbols, but mainly its just the contents of your personal unconscious.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RISsYQh_w

    here jung gives an example of archetypal image in dream;
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVeZz5QnEFE

    the complex in which the archetype in presented(in the womans dream) is the jung complex in the womans personal unconscious
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    I guess it depends on how you also define "persona." According to wiki, on the Jungian Archetype page, it is:

    The Persona, to Jung a mere "functional complex ... by no means identical to the individuality", the way we present to the world - a mask which protects the Ego from negative images, and which by post-Jungians is sometimes considered an "archetype ... as a dynamic/structural component of the psyche".


    But I agree with you, I consider a 'persona' to be adopted by a person as a coping mechanism/ or complex.


    I usually mean personality as what nature has given us innately. I'm working out now if that includes our phenotype, which i believe it does. The 'substance' of our minds/psyches; the admixture of our matter and our form (soul) which forms the foundation (which i call core) from which we express ourselves, interact with our world, from which dispositions arise, and behaviors develop. Personality, in the way I mean it, is what we are born into the world with and is not predicated by anything else; it is pure.
    I suggest listening some podacasts from here: http://www.jungian.ca/jung-podcasts/

    he explains very well pretty much the whole jungian psychology
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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