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Fe Fakeness

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
Those cultures are classified as collectivist cultures and social or sexual, I can't tell...

We are individualist and self-preservational. I'm sure that as an INTJ you enjoy a culture that backs up what you value.

I'm sorry, I still don't see what you're getting at...

2nd. No. Look for the 1998 Inferential Statistics MBTI study that was conducted. 2/3 of the people with TJ or FP preference, ergo a congressional majority.

Uh, well, I just looked at another source that said 47/53.

And I've seen all kinds of different statistics, and they're all much closer to 50/50 than the source you're quoting.

Why is Fi the source of racism?

That was the other part where I was not with him.

We FJ's and TP's get the short end of the stick in this society...

Oh, that's what this is about.
 

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Messages
7,626
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INFP
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sp/sx
If you take into account that within the theory, Fi is largely sourced from "primordial images" which come from the "collective unconscious", then it's arguably more "universal" than Fe is. Fe is far more contextual - in line with the values of the family, culture, social clique, country, etc.

Fi is about fundamental principles; it is abstract, basic concepts cutting to the heart of why something is important or necessary for humanity. It is subjective in that it focuses on the inner underlying image - or the the universal principle - in its most pure, simple form, so as to keep the external from corrupting it (because the masses are known to become unreasonable mobs). In this sense, Fi is striving to maintain a consistency so as to protect the universal nature of these ideas or images, and that's why it resists degradation to mere social rules - it resists "the object" in that sense.

Fi seeks to protect, perfect & simply understand these moral ideals by keeping them abstract (in that pre-verbal, undefined form). Fe seeks to define them to make them viable; that's all well & good, but not when the context changes & the rule is no long applicable. Frankly, this is why Fi types are more flexible in general; they see the underlying principle & how it can be applied in many ways across contexts. It's often the very same moral at root across these contexts though. Fi does, however, reason on these concepts & do much of its own interpretation, which certainly makes it subjective. This is why the focus is on adapting these concepts to the needs of individuals (not making blanket rules). So what's right for you is right for me, but that may still manifest very differently because we are two different "contexts", even as the core principle is very much the same.

To the Fi type, Fe can't exist without Fi; Fe is just a manifestation of Fi applied to a specific context. (Of course, this how the mind of the introvert works; reality is ideas & thoughts & concepts). Ideally, Fe + Fi work together, in the interests of the individual & the group, as neither is fully satisfied when the other is lacking.

"Treat others the way you'd want to be treated" is fine to Fi, with the caveat of "remembering that they are not you & may want to be treated differently than you'd like to be treated". Because the principle behind that statement is NOT saying you should assume everyone feels as you do. Treating someone the way you want to be treated means considering their needs/wants as you'd want them to consider yours, not assuming their needs/wants are the same as yours.

Jung's definition of Image & Primordial Image said:
When I speak of "image" in this book, I do not mean the psychic reflection of an external object, but....a figure of fancy. This image... appears more or less abruptly in consciousness, somewhat in the manner of a vision... The image has the psychological character of a fantasy idea....The inner image is a complex structure made up of the most varied material from the most varied sources.

I call the image primordial when it possess an archaic character.... It then expresses material primarily derived from the collective unconscious and indicates at the same time that the factors influencing the conscious situation of the moment are collective rather than personal.

The primordial image is a precursor of the idea and its matrix. By detaching it from concretism peculiar & necessary to the primordial image, reason develops into a concept; ie. an idea which differs from all other concepts in that it is not a datum of experience, but is actually the underlying principle of all experience.


Jung's definition of Collective said:
I term collective all psychic contents that belong not to one individual, but to many, ie., to a society or people, or to mankind in general. Such contents are what Levy-Bruhl calls the"representations collectives" of primitives, as well as general concepts of justice, the state, religion, science, etc, current among civilized man. It is not only concepts and ways of looking at things, however, that must be termed collective, but also feelings. Among primitives, representations collectives are at the same time collective feelings, as Levy-Bruhl has shown. Because of this collective feeling value, he calls the representations collectives "mystical", since they are not merely intellectual, but emotional. Among civilized peoples, too, certain collective ideas - God, justice, fatherland, etc - are bound up with collective feelings. This collective quality adheres not only to particular psychic elements or contents, but to whole functions.


Fi said:
Its aim is not to adjust itself to the object, but to subordinate it in an unconscious effort to realize the underlying images.

It is continually seeking an image which has no existence in reality, but which it has seen in a kind of vision.

The primordial images are, of course, just as much ideas as feelings. Fundamental ideas, ideas like God, freedom, and immortality, are just as much feeling-values as they are significant ideas.
 

chris1207

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Joined
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Messages
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XNXX
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Why is Fi the source of racism?

It's an introverted function and as a result is dichotomous in it's structure. I am better than you or you are better than me. S + Fi = why people give a crap about famous people ("what exactly makes them better than us such that they make more money...")

It's like Ti in that respect but Ti deals with true or false, left or right, to do or to not do (impersonally that is)...
 

Noon

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790
It's an introverted function and as a result is dichotomous in it's structure. I am better than you or you are better than me. S + Fi = why people give a crap about famous people ("what exactly makes them better than us such that they make more money...")

It's like Ti in that respect but Ti deals with true or false, left or right, to do or to not do (impersonally that is)...

I always assumed that Fi, due to being introverted, was naturally inclined to not measure value based on environmental -- or objectively quantifiable -- qualities like fame and wealth. I think my Fi is what makes it so easy for me to relate to people regardless of race, class, social group or age actually. It all seems astronomically irrelevant, and I am S + Fi.
 
G

Glycerine

Guest
Ill-informed people created racism. Race is socially constructed but it's still alive and well. It's so engrained into culture that it is socially very real but biologically false.
 

chris1207

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Fi is about fundamental principles; it is abstract, basic concepts cutting to the heart of why something is important or necessary for humanity. It is subjective in that it focuses on the inner underlying image - or the the universal principle - in its most pure, simple form, so as to keep the external from corrupting it (Self-Preservation (because the masses are known to become unreasonable mobs). In this sense, Fi is striving to maintain a consistency so as to protect the universal nature of these ideas or images That or your own individuality?, and that's why it resists degradation lol, degradation to mere social rules - it resists "the object" in that sense.

Fi seeks to protect, perfect & simply understand these moral ideals by keeping them abstract (in that pre-verbal, undefined form). Fe seeks to define them to make them viable; that's all well & good, but not when the context changes & the rule is no long applicable. Frankly, this is why Fi types are more flexible in general Of course, it's an introverted cognitive function. They're always more flexible because they aren't bound to an external standard; they see the underlying principle & how it can be applied in many ways across contexts. It's often the very same moral at root across these contexts though. Fi does, however, reason on these concepts & do much of its own interpretation, which certainly makes it subjective. This is why the focus is on adapting these concepts to the needs of individuals (not making blanket rules). So what's right for you is right for me, but that may still manifest very differently because we are two different "contexts", even as the core principle is very much the same.

To the Fi type, Fe can't exist without Fi False. Fe 'ethics' are Fe+Si or Fe+Ni, giving the impression that they are Fi; Fe is just a manifestation of Fi applied to a specific context. Again False(Of course, this how the mind of the introvert works; reality is ideas & thoughts & concepts). Ideally, Fe + Fi work together, in the interests of the individual & the group, as neither is fully satisfied when the other is lacking.

"Treat others the way you'd want to be treated" is fine to Fi, with the caveat of "remembering that they are not you & may want to be treated differently than you'd like to be treated". Not even close to implied in the Bible, something you've inserted after the fact on account of your valuesBecause the principle behind that statement is NOT saying you should assume everyone feels as you do. Treating someone the way you want to be treated means considering their needs/wants as you'd want them to consider yours, not assuming their needs/wants are the same as yours.

Bold is me. Much of the other stuff I agree with. By abstract, you mean 'detached'. Of course, it's detached, individualistic, inwardly-focused, more flexible, etc, etc. It's an introverted function. And to be fair, these characteristics are what allow Fi users, especially STJ's to detach for giving a shit about people that aren't of their own ilk. They must preserve their community.

I agree with much of what you've said. :)
 

chris1207

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Ill-informed people created racism. Race is socially constructed but it's still alive and well. It's so engrained into culture that it is socially very real but biologically false.

Completely agree but it'll get better with the internet and cellphones and their impact on the way we communicate and how often for that matter.
 

chris1207

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I always assumed that Fi, due to being introverted, was naturally inclined to not measure value based on environmental -- or objectively quantifiable -- qualities like fame and wealth. I think my Fi is what makes it so easy for me to relate to people regardless of race, class, social group or age actually. It all seems astronomically irrelevant, and I am S + Fi.

Maybe that's just for people that are S => Fi not people like you whose Fi is unencumbered by another function.
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
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Messages
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Maybe that's just for people that are S => Fi not people like you whose Fi is unencumbered by another function.

And maybe your theory is full of shit.

I've seen plenty of Fe-users who really care about celebrities, social status, etc.
 

Viridian

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I never thought I'd see the day where Fi/Fe threads would end up veering into race topics...

Also, can't Fe users be individualistic and Fi users collectivistic? Are we going to equate type = political opinion again now? :huh:
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
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Messages
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I think certain political opinions are certainly correlated to type, but I think Fe users and all Fs tend to be more collectivistic.

I think TJs tend to be the only type with a particular bent towards individualism.

Politically, at least; not necessarily in other spheres.
 

chris1207

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And maybe your theory is full of shit.

I've seen plenty of Fe-users who really care about celebrities, social status, etc.

Yes, as a mechanism to increase our ability to impact others. Not fame for fame's sake I mean. The more people you know the greater the impact and thus the greater the effectiveness. That's why ESTP's w tertiary Fe like to make jackasses of themselves in public. That and the fact that they don't understand or appreciate norms which encroach upon their own sense of personal, in-the-moment dynamism.
 

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
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Self-Preservation

No, preservation of ideals which benefit humans as a whole.

degradation lol

Possibly a poor word choice because of its negative connotations, but I meant a breaking down of something, in this case, to make it specific. Whenever you do that, you lose some meaning. Fi is trying to protect that whole meaning so when a new context arises, the core principle is intact in order to apply again.

Of course, it's an introverted cognitive function. They're always more flexible because they aren't bound to an external standard

You apparently didn't read the rest of the paragraph....? They ARE bound to a universal standard, one which changes less than the external.

False. Fe 'ethics' are Fe+Si or Fe+Ni, giving the impression that they are Fi;

Because...?
Explain your statement. You've provided no reason for this to be true.

Again False

Because?

(Interesting how the Fe type is the one arbitrarily deeming things true or false without any external backup....)

Not even close to implied in the Bible, something you've inserted after the fact on account of your values

But we're not talking about the Bible....not all Fe types accept the Bible anyway, and many Fi types do. Using it as some sort of standard for Fe is silly.


Bold is me. Much of the other stuff I agree with. By abstract, you mean 'detached'. Of course, it's detached, individualistic, inwardly-focused, more flexible, etc, etc. It's an introverted function. And to be fair, these characteristics are what allow Fi users, especially STJ's to detach for giving a shit about people that aren't of their own ilk. They must preserve their community.

I agree with much of what you've said. :)

Uh no, you agreed with your interpretation of it, which was to twist it into something else.
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
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Messages
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Yes, as a mechanism to increase our ability to impact others. Not fame for fame's sake I mean. The more people you know the greater the impact and thus the greater the effectiveness.

I think you are giving far too much credit to Fe-users, and taking away far too much from Fi-users.

And, frankly, I don't think most of this has to do with non-Fs, anyway, so I'm not really speaking from the point of view as if my group is being attacked. I just think your ideas are objectively whack. Very poorly thought-out. A bunch of (mostly) meaningless generalizations.

That's why ESTP's w tertiary Fe like to make jackasses of themselves in public. That and the fact that they don't understand or appreciate norms which encroach upon their own sense of personal, in-the-moment dynamism.

And you kind of just float from one topic to the next.

Very little clarity or consistency.
 
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