Fe Fakeness

[Kalach]

Well that was... easy?

Anyway, it's interesting... is it the unconscious Ti that conflicts with Te or is it simple fact of directly differing priorities in Te and Fe? If Te in one person and Fe in another are both relatively conscious, could the people in question, all other things being equal, compromise?

Well unless someone actually says something about what Te and Fe really are, as opposed to what their products are, then that question can't be answered. But it's interesting that Fe seems to rely on Ti for some unconscious foundation as Te relies on Fi. Neither Je is supposed to be considered broken as a result. One assumes that where they are conscious, they are capable. But if it's true that there's this hidden Ji element to all conscious Je, then Te and Fe have built in rejections of each other, unrelated to content, directly related to form.

And if conscious Fi has a hidden Te structure, then Fi has a built in rejection of Fe methodology. Fe is recognised (unconsciously) as emotionally-driven stipulation about the environment when what stipulation about the environment is supposed tor reveal is its impersonal organisation, and any other attachment to the environment is and must be projection that blinds people to the real nature of things. Or, worse, it's fakery.

 

[onemoretime]

I'm not so sure that it's a rejection per se, as much as it is a desire or tendency to avoid considering the reasoning of the opposing judging function preference. It's a question of universality and rules (Te/Fi) compared to contextualization and relationships (Ti/Fe).

There is a logic within these connections of the conscious and unconscious, at the same time. Te, the preference to conceive of all aspects of the outside world as falling within a universal framework that exists separate from individual perspective, intermeshes nicely with Fi, the preference to connect one's subjective perspective of value with a universal meaning. Unconscious Te reinforces conscious Fi in that it interconnects the importance of the conscious evaluation of the truth of a matter with an unconscious understanding that universal rules exist even in the absence of subjective perception. A conscious Fi preference therefore leads a person to view his judgment of the truth of a matter not as something created by himself, but as a recognition of a universal truth that already existed separate from his perception, i.e. within a Te framework. Unconscious Fi reinforces conscious Te by strengthening one's preference to conceive of the outside world as consisting of universal, objective, and quantifiable relationships, through an unconscious preference toward valuing the world for containing universal truths. A conscious Te preference therefore leads a person to view the systems and frameworks she develops in the outside world as more than simply human artifice, but instead, as expressions of the harmony and truth that flows throughout the universe, that is, the Fi resonance.

Fe, the preference to determine value in the outside world through the establishment of relationships existing within a particular social context, irrespective of other contexts, also coincides with Ti, the preference to connect one's subjective perceptions of impersonal relationships within a particular contextual framework. Unconscious Fe informs conscious Ti through constantly reinforcing the idea that outcomes associated with massive frameworks of interpersonal relationship, such as society, are massively influenced by the context in which an individual performs a particular action, along with that individual's social status, which can vary from another's status by the slightest of degrees. A conscious Ti preference therefore inclines a person to view all relationships, particularly internal, impersonal ones, as dependent on the precise definition of the agent-variable, and particular context in which the agent-variable acts, unconsciously treating these impersonally related concepts as if they were persons interacting with one another. This also helps explain the Fe-like personal investment that he may have in these idea-relationships. Unconscious Ti informs conscious Fe by providing an internal framework by which the person can arrange the massive, complicated interrelationships within a social structure and understand how they all interact with one another. A conscious Fe preference thus inclines a person toward viewing social networks as rational structures with internal logic, and certain social actions as leading to certain outcomes under certain contexts, as if it were a sort of logical puzzle or heuristic that the unconscious Ti would enjoy.

If the Fi preference rejects anything about the Fe preference, it is the idea that things can or should be valued based on their context. Instead, things do have universal value that does not waver, regardless of circumstance. The Te preference would, in regard to that which appeals to the Fe preference, reject the idea that relationships and subjective context represent what is fundamentally important about our existence, maintaining that instead, these are mere aspects of the fundamentally greater logic and coherency that exists all throughout the universe, both within our existence and absent from it.

You may, of course, disagree.

 

[sculpting]

Last night after my INTJ had drank two glasses of whiskey, I sat in his lap, ran my fingers through his hair and gently kissed his eyes and his face and tried to convince him that momentary perceptions based off of our "objective" reality, are in themselves a reality of their own, and if not dismissed outright, can be built into, um, stuff, and if one is a dominant perceiver, perhaps those perceptions actually are more real to the cognitive machinary, than any "objective" reality. Alas, Te still won out. Silly bunny, objective reality is for kids...

 

[highlander]

Last night after my INTJ had drank two glasses of whiskey, I sat in his lap, ran my fingers through his hair and gently kissed his eyes and his face and tried to convince him that momentary perceptions based off of our "objective" reality, are in themselves a reality of their own, and if not dismissed outright, can be built into, um, stuff, and if one is a dominant perceiver, perhaps those perceptions actually are more real to the cognitive machinary, than any "objective" reality. Alas, Te still won out. Silly bunny, objective reality is for kids...

Wait. Te won out?

 

[uumlau]

Wait. Te won out?

Within me.

My main point was along these lines: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41294&p=1452965&viewfull=1#post1452965

Basically, as an Ni-dom, I very much regard ideas and potentialities as "real." But in order to maintain my sanity and rationality, I must recognize that there is a "real" reality that isn't in my head. I need to discern between the mental proxies in my head, and the "real" truths that those proxies supposedly represent.

I cannot afford to believe that my perceptions are "more real to the cognitive machinery, than any 'objective' reality." As was customary on old maps, I label such paths of thought as "Here be dragons."

 

[sculpting]

I used to be this way too until I realized that they don't care.
They have a personal bias/grudge against Fe and it's as simple as that and it won't ever change.

Has it changed in all these years? No, it hasn't.

It isnt because we "hate" Fe, more than Fe can hurt us without you guys realizing it. Because it hurts, we push back defensively.

How it hurts? It hurts as each time I am told "you REALLY should feel THIS way", I feel initially pain that I did not feel THIS way, and that I have "saddened" someone I care for by not correctly having my values set to care for them in the way they needed, since my feelings are one with my self definition, then if my feelings are flawed, then I am flawed...thus I hurt. It is very ainful and I am filled with guilt.....thus then to realize that the person was "using" my emotions just to generate thier desire leaves me filled with enormous anger and rage, that they would attack my core, thus tell me I am flawed and cause me sadness and pain....yet none of it is "real" hurt on their part....

Now after learning and listening, I realize this is a communication issue and isnt the intent of the Fe user....but if I EVER allow myself to give into the Fe nudges, I seem to fall off of the edge of a cliff...it isnt just the one emotion that was wrong, but my whole sense of self, thus it can feel amost suicidal....extraordinary shame.

I suspect this extreme response may be a result of my own shadow Fe, but knowing this is how the Fe nedge can affect me, I instead will respond to it with a Te wall and not allow myself to feel the emotional message contained within the Fe nudge.

^^Hope this explains the defensive stance you see somewhat, not sure how applicable it is to others...

The annoying thing is that I am typically highly aware of the social dynamics/ how people are reacting towards me/social rules but I like to detach from it all because I am so sensitive to it all. I just don't want to deal with it and engage it on my own terms. If I could get rid of my Fe domness, I would.

I totally get this, but rather than social dynamics, I am highly aware of the empathic state of those around me, am far too sensitive to it, thus I try and detach from it.

Wait. Te won out?

LOL, what he other INTJ said! He argued that there can only be one reality. Alas, so sad, as perhaps because I have no Se, I see the possibilities of a virtually infinte set of concurrent realities. (I suspect the Fi smears all the Ne potential paths, so it "feels" infinite.) Because Ne is extroverted, those realities posess an almost physical, tangible sense of reality to them. I can almost touch them, they feel so real. Now, not being totally bonkers, I do recognize these physical connections in my mind are simply cognitive objects, abstract platonic objects that I can store and use later, or even build into multidimensional layers-haha, a bit like a game of chutes and ladders!

But my proposal to the gentleman INTJ was that these objects, even if incorrect in their connection or incorrect if applied to the current problem under study, still deserve recognition as posessing value, perhaps not because of their incorrect application upon reality, but their subsequent applicablity in building further ideas. Or something like that!

Onemoretime's post above was an absolutely beautiful description of Ti-Fe social mechanics...it is enthralling and almost deserves it's own thread.

 

[sculpting]

It's a question of universality and rules (Te/Fi) compared to contextualization and relationships (Ti/Fe)..

Does Ti not possess universal truths? or do those truths just not apply to social/human interactions?

TIf the Fi preference rejects anything about the Fe preference, it is the idea that things can or should be valued based on their context. Instead, things do have universal value that does not waver, regardless of circumstance. The Te preference would, in regard to that which appeals to the Fe preference, reject the idea that relationships and subjective context represent what is fundamentally important about our existence, maintaining that instead, these are mere aspects of the fundamentally greater logic and coherency that exists all throughout the universe, both within our existence and absent from it.

If a deaf TJ was alone in the woods and farted, would it make a noise? LOLOLOL. Hehehe, sorry, I am full of sillies....

I could be slow but can you verify that it seems you said for you that relationhips are the most fundementally important part of your existence?

Perhaps an interesting way to look at both Te and Fe might be in terms of what renders social stability. In Fe land, it is all that complex relationship stuff, of which I seem to be oblivious. In Te land it is reaching objectives, delivering deliverables, assign responsibility and so on. Now at first glance the Fe stuff seems more people oriented, and sure, the mechanics are through the people. The end result is a stable society for the people.

But in the same sense, the Te dynamics use the people as objects-but again the results are for the people-the stability of the social group. I get somewhat offended by the notion that Te doesnt care about people, when the results of Te create a society for people.....more later maybe

 

[Vasilisa]

I used to be this way too until I realized that they don't care.
They have a personal bias/grudge against Fe and it's as simple as that and it won't ever change.

Has it changed in all these years? No, it hasn't.

The annoying thing is that I am typically highly aware of the social dynamics/ how people are reacting towards me/social rules but I like to detach from it all because I am so sensitive to it all. I just don't want to deal with it and engage it on my own terms. If I could get rid of my Fe domness, I would.

Do you suppose you have internalized the notion that if "aliens visited the earth and somehow hated Fe people and holocaust'd them out of existence" and it was a purely an Fi world, it would be utopia? That topic comes up not infrequently.

 

[Glycerine]

[MENTION=9273]Vasilisa[/MENTION] I don't know. I just used to put so much credence into reciprocality, putting the group first (being highly considerate of others), reaching out to others, I kept getting burned so I pretty much said "screw it" to the world in that regard I did not like my sensitivity so I decided to push it down deep inside of me. My past life experiences added to it a lot too. I think if things were different I would have become a fairly friendly, open, emotionally expressive 2w3 ENFJ. People always seem shocked when I get animated about anything in real life.... they think I'm on drugs or something. LOL. Saying that, I have no regrets on how I turned out.

 

[highlander]

It isnt because we "hate" Fe, more than Fe can hurt us without you guys realizing it. Because it hurts, we push back defensively.

How it hurts? It hurts as each time I am told "you REALLY should feel THIS way", I feel initially pain that I did not feel THIS way, and that I have "saddened" someone I care for by not correctly having my values set to care for them in the way they needed, since my feelings are one with my self definition, then if my feelings are flawed, then I am flawed...thus I hurt.

You know there is some truth to this. It doesn't bother me like it does you Orobas but it still can and does. I can feel unappreciated, get annoyed, sometimes angry and yes defensive. It's criticizing me somehow as to who I am at my core. My reaction might be for example, "I'm happy to consider whatever views and opinions you have. Really I am. But NO. I really should NOT FEEL THAT WAY. Be free to feel whatever way you want though."

Of course Fi is not as high up the stack for me and so I might be more immune.

 

[Kalach]

I actually don't know what the fakeness criticism is, really. What I'm mostly aware of around "obvious" Fe types is competition for organisational control. They have priorities I just don't get but to my sense of things their priorities are genuinely theirs. My experience of SFJs range from the horrible to the merely exhausting. NFJs are easier to get along with even though agreement never happens. TPs, particularly ETPs, can come off as trying to screw with me on purpose, which is unsettling, but they need me to react first usually. But to me they all look quite clearly like they're attempting to manage the external world and they have some set of real priorities to that management. At least on my own level I understand that this kind of approach to the world is real and derives from real impulses.

 

[Zarathustra]

You know there is some truth to this. It doesn't bother me like it does you Orobas but it still can and does. I can feel unappreciated, get annoyed, sometimes angry and yes defensive. It's criticizing me somehow as to who I am at my core. My reaction might be for example, "I'm happy to consider whatever views and opinions you have. Really I am. But NO. I really should NOT FEEL THAT WAY. Be free to feel whatever way you want though."

Of course Fi is not as high up the stack for me and so I might be more immune.

Yeah, this is much closer to how I feel.

I'm not at all like, Oro, really -- aside from being bothered by it.

My reaction is something like, "What the fuck are you talking about? Don't tell me how to feel. Fine, you feel that way. That's your prerogative. But there ain't nothing objective about it, and I sure as shit don't need to feel that way." Then, if they keep pressing the issue, I give kind of a, "Back the fuck off, cuz I already think you're being an idiot, and I'm holding this fact back in order to keep things civil, but if you keep pressing me on this, I may very well let you know how I feel."

Of course, I suppose there are other times where I just pretend like I agree in order to keep things running smoothly.

Te imitating Fe. Gotta choose your battles. Sometimes what they're saying even kinda makes sense. Who'da thunk?

 

[Elfboy]

You know there is some truth to this. It doesn't bother me like it does you Orobas but it still can and does. I can feel unappreciated, get annoyed, sometimes angry and yes defensive. It's criticizing me somehow as to who I am at my core. My reaction might be for example, "I'm happy to consider whatever views and opinions you have. Really I am. But NO. I really should NOT FEEL THAT WAY. Be free to feel whatever way you want though."
Of course Fi is not as high up the stack for me and so I might be more immune.

based on the rest of this post, I'm inclined to think otherwise

 

[skylights]

It's criticizing me somehow as to who I am at my core.

yeah. that.

i feel like... Fi'ers are used to giving/receiving "space"... like... we all operate with "bubbles" of personality around us, and what i do within my bubble is of little concern to everyone else, because it's my bubble. and i don't infringe on others' bubbles and they don't infringe on mine. and if we don't like each other, we just don't interact. but Fe'ers seem like they interact on a spiderweb, and what anyone does at their intersection on the web vibrates through to everyone else. and so you always must be aware of how you are acting and how it will come off to others and you are always aware of how others are acting and how that changes things for you.

trying to use the Fe perspective is very energy-draining for me... it seems like a lot of work.

 

[Glycerine]

There is nothing like 4 or 5 EXXJs vying for power... just shoot me now... it's quite a spectacle. LOL That's how all the family reunions on my dad's side are like. He and I stay the fuck out of it.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

I'm not so sure that it's a rejection per se, as much as it is a desire or tendency to avoid considering the reasoning of the opposing judging function preference. It's a question of universality and rules (Te/Fi) compared to contextualization and relationships (Ti/Fe).

There is a logic within these connections of the conscious and unconscious, at the same time. Te, the preference to conceive of all aspects of the outside world as falling within a universal framework that exists separate from individual perspective, intermeshes nicely with Fi, the preference to connect one's subjective perspective of value with a universal meaning. Unconscious Te reinforces conscious Fi in that it interconnects the importance of the conscious evaluation of the truth of a matter with an unconscious understanding that universal rules exist even in the absence of subjective perception. A conscious Fi preference therefore leads a person to view his judgment of the truth of a matter not as something created by himself, but as a recognition of a universal truth that already existed separate from his perception, i.e. within a Te framework. Unconscious Fi reinforces conscious Te by strengthening one's preference to conceive of the outside world as consisting of universal, objective, and quantifiable relationships, through an unconscious preference toward valuing the world for containing universal truths. A conscious Te preference therefore leads a person to view the systems and frameworks she develops in the outside world as more than simply human artifice, but instead, as expressions of the harmony and truth that flows throughout the universe, that is, the Fi resonance.

Fe, the preference to determine value in the outside world through the establishment of relationships existing within a particular social context, irrespective of other contexts, also coincides with Ti, the preference to connect one's subjective perceptions of impersonal relationships within a particular contextual framework. Unconscious Fe informs conscious Ti through constantly reinforcing the idea that outcomes associated with massive frameworks of interpersonal relationship, such as society, are massively influenced by the context in which an individual performs a particular action, along with that individual's social status, which can vary from another's status by the slightest of degrees. A conscious Ti preference therefore inclines a person to view all relationships, particularly internal, impersonal ones, as dependent on the precise definition of the agent-variable, and particular context in which the agent-variable acts, unconsciously treating these impersonally related concepts as if they were persons interacting with one another. This also helps explain the Fe-like personal investment that he may have in these idea-relationships. Unconscious Ti informs conscious Fe by providing an internal framework by which the person can arrange the massive, complicated interrelationships within a social structure and understand how they all interact with one another. A conscious Fe preference thus inclines a person toward viewing social networks as rational structures with internal logic, and certain social actions as leading to certain outcomes under certain contexts, as if it were a sort of logical puzzle or heuristic that the unconscious Ti would enjoy.

If the Fi preference rejects anything about the Fe preference, it is the idea that things can or should be valued based on their context. Instead, things do have universal value that does not waver, regardless of circumstance. The Te preference would, in regard to that which appeals to the Fe preference, reject the idea that relationships and subjective context represent what is fundamentally important about our existence, maintaining that instead, these are mere aspects of the fundamentally greater logic and coherency that exists all throughout the universe, both within our existence and absent from it.

You may, of course, disagree.

 

[Zarathustra]

I actually don't know what the fakeness criticism is, really. What I'm mostly aware of around "obvious" Fe types is competition for organisational control. They have priorities I just don't get but to my sense of things their priorities are genuinely theirs. My experience of SFJs range from the horrible to the merely exhausting. NFJs are easier to get along with even though agreement never happens. TPs, particularly ETPs, can come off as trying to screw with me on purpose, which is unsettling, but they need me to react first usually. But to me they all look quite clearly like they're attempting to manage the external world and they have some set of real priorities to that management. At least on my own level I understand that this kind of approach to the world is real and derives from real impulses.

Great descriptions.

I feel you on all of em, especially getting along with but never agreeing with the NFJs, and feeling like the ETPs are always trying to fuck with you (but that you, ultimately, have control).

I think the reason Fi people often describe it as fake is because we feel like we can just trust Fi people more: that they're not just putting on a face.

Now, whether it's accurate to say that Fi people don't put on a face ever or at all: I wouldn't say that.

I just think Fe people always seem to be putting on a face.

Fe is the trickster function for INTJs, though, so it's a predictable reaction...

i feel like... Fi'ers are used to giving/receiving "space"... like... we all operate with "bubbles" of personality around us, and what i do within my bubble is of little concern to everyone else, because it's my bubble. and i don't infringe on others' bubbles and they don't infringe on mine. and if we don't like each other, we just don't interact. but Fe'ers seem like they interact on a spiderweb, and what anyone does at their intersection on the web vibrates through to everyone else. and so you always must be aware of how you are acting and how it will come off to others and you are always aware of how others are acting and how that changes things for you.

trying to use the Fe perspective is very energy-draining for me... it seems like a lot of work.

This.

I'm socially awkward enough as is.

Don't need Fe'ers behavioral rules all jumpin down my throat on top of it.

 

[Ginkgo]

I'm not so sure that it's a rejection per se, as much as it is a desire or tendency to avoid considering the reasoning of the opposing judging function preference. It's a question of universality and rules (Te/Fi) compared to contextualization and relationships (Ti/Fe).

There is a logic within these connections of the conscious and unconscious, at the same time. Te, the preference to conceive of all aspects of the outside world as falling within a universal framework that exists separate from individual perspective, intermeshes nicely with Fi, the preference to connect one's subjective perspective of value with a universal meaning. Unconscious Te reinforces conscious Fi in that it interconnects the importance of the conscious evaluation of the truth of a matter with an unconscious understanding that universal rules exist even in the absence of subjective perception. A conscious Fi preference therefore leads a person to view his judgment of the truth of a matter not as something created by himself, but as a recognition of a universal truth that already existed separate from his perception, i.e. within a Te framework. Unconscious Fi reinforces conscious Te by strengthening one's preference to conceive of the outside world as consisting of universal, objective, and quantifiable relationships, through an unconscious preference toward valuing the world for containing universal truths. A conscious Te preference therefore leads a person to view the systems and frameworks she develops in the outside world as more than simply human artifice, but instead, as expressions of the harmony and truth that flows throughout the universe, that is, the Fi resonance.

Fe, the preference to determine value in the outside world through the establishment of relationships existing within a particular social context, irrespective of other contexts, also coincides with Ti, the preference to connect one's subjective perceptions of impersonal relationships within a particular contextual framework. Unconscious Fe informs conscious Ti through constantly reinforcing the idea that outcomes associated with massive frameworks of interpersonal relationship, such as society, are massively influenced by the context in which an individual performs a particular action, along with that individual's social status, which can vary from another's status by the slightest of degrees. A conscious Ti preference therefore inclines a person to view all relationships, particularly internal, impersonal ones, as dependent on the precise definition of the agent-variable, and particular context in which the agent-variable acts, unconsciously treating these impersonally related concepts as if they were persons interacting with one another. This also helps explain the Fe-like personal investment that he may have in these idea-relationships. Unconscious Ti informs conscious Fe by providing an internal framework by which the person can arrange the massive, complicated interrelationships within a social structure and understand how they all interact with one another. A conscious Fe preference thus inclines a person toward viewing social networks as rational structures with internal logic, and certain social actions as leading to certain outcomes under certain contexts, as if it were a sort of logical puzzle or heuristic that the unconscious Ti would enjoy.

If the Fi preference rejects anything about the Fe preference, it is the idea that things can or should be valued based on their context. Instead, things do have universal value that does not waver, regardless of circumstance. The Te preference would, in regard to that which appeals to the Fe preference, reject the idea that relationships and subjective context represent what is fundamentally important about our existence, maintaining that instead, these are mere aspects of the fundamentally greater logic and coherency that exists all throughout the universe, both within our existence and absent from it.

You may, of course, disagree.

/has had precisely the same thoughts. +1

 

[Giggly]

Do you suppose you have internalized the notion that if "aliens visited the earth and somehow hated Fe people and holocaust'd them out of existence" and it was a purely an Fi world, it would be utopia? That topic comes up not infrequently.

Hahaha no, not at all. Those are funny though. I don't take threads like that seriously (at least not anymore), and I've never had any complaints in real life. I just came into the thread to make the comment above to help Glycerine.

[MENTION=9273]Vasilisa[/MENTION] I don't know. I just used to put so much credence into reciprocality, putting the group first (being highly considerate of others), reaching out to others, I kept getting burned so I pretty much said "screw it" to the world in that regard I did not like my sensitivity so I decided to push it down deep inside of me. My past life experiences added to it a lot too. I think if things were different I would have become a fairly friendly, open, emotionally expressive 2w3 ENFJ. People always seem shocked when I get animated about anything in real life.... they think I'm on drugs or something. LOL. Saying that, I have no regrets on how I turned out.

I wonder what you would have been like if you were free and not having to hold anything in.

 

[Zarathustra]

Goddamit, I'm very tempted to read that, but I usually can't stand [MENTION=7330]onemoretime[/MENTION]'s posts, and it's frickin long as hell...

Everyone's sayin it's good, though...