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Fe Fakeness

Thalassa

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That's because I've spent 10 year debating one. My 2ic is an ENTJ. I think I know the difference thank you very much.



Yes, thank you. I've contacted him.

He is a true ENTJ through and through. It's really so uncanny the similarities between him and my COO.

They both like anime, MMA, guns and of course, being ENTJ's (war with themselves and others). Exceptional executors.



I am an Ennegream 5w6 and have always tested that since day one. Just listen to how ridiculous your "analysis" sounds. You reading believing your own bullshit. You need to take your head out of the clouds.

Where are you actions? I have created a painstaking list of MBTI types in reality over 3 years with vigorous debate with over 80 people now. Have you? Or you just been here in a self-confirming little bubble fooling everyone?

Every single statement I can backup with proof and action. Can you?

It comes down to Actions vs Words.

You trying to make yourself feel better because you so light on it. You are a theorizer, and not to say an INTJ can't be one (eg Newton), but you seem nothing like him. He produced so much. Theory that had utility. Newton is a fantastic example. While expound much of modern science he also was most definitely Te in his life approach to life vs pure academics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

Not every single INTJ would go into businesses, but you told me earlier you couldn't rule out Michael Jackson being an INTJ. What a ridiculous statement.

I can with complete and utter certainty, tell you that Michael Jackson is not an INTJ. You just don't have the definiteness of an INTJ. It's mock confidence and it shows in your stupid use of smiley's all over the show.

You give off the nerd trying to be a "tough guy" beating up people on forums intellectually. We had an ENTP who was our product guy that was exactly the same thing, loved being "clever" and pointing it out. He was eventually dismissed for fucking around for too long and not being able to close. Endlessly dreaming up big ideas and love debating, but when it came to action he came up very very short.

And if you think trying to pick apart one post by me is "owning me", you just so deluded. I do what I say, and I'm not sticking around for another 2000 posts trying to adjust you to reality.

But go and pick apart my posts with more deflecting, "haha"'s. Nearly every statement you make is "left open". Again something an NTP does. I've seen it time and time again when they on the defensive.

You make a fantastic argument.

It is a little like the ENTPs.

O.M.G.

On the other hand, as I mentioned earlier, there is a rare INTJ disease that ravages some of them, in that they believe everything they say is objective to the point of it becoming absolutely humorous for on-lookers.

Take Ayn Rand, for example.
 

five

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You make a fantastic argument.

It is a little like the ENTPs.

O.M.G.

On the other hand, as I mentioned earlier, there is a rare INTJ disease that ravages some of them, in that they believe everything they say is objective to the point of it becoming absolutely humorous for on-lookers.

Take Ayn Rand, for example.

Right, so let tell you whats happened here. This whole forum lacks Se and Te and as a consequence this guy appears to be like that because he is the most "INTJ" here.

Yes he is of course he is rational and objective, compared to an NF or SF, which he loves to argue with. Which is ironic because to me he seems subjective and overly emotional compared to me. I have seen this constantly in my debates over the years with NTP's.

Every single time their emotion gets in the way of truth when I push hard on boundaries cases. (eg stuff that they should have discarded as BS but haven't because of not having Te).He also is intelligent clearly. But so is my INTP friend. He is wickedly smart yet I constantly am adjusting him towards reality. NTP's are just not that grounded. Just like Chris Langan with an IQ of 185 believes in creationism. Smart people can be stupid. IQ is a very one dimensional measure of overall intelligence. Being able to hit a ball accurately everytime is intelligence, its an Se intelligence. He is placing his Ne skills as supreme to all, which is arrogant.

In otherwords Ni Te is actually the most objective, I am one and that's not in question. I believe in nothing superstitious whatsoever. I'm completely a reductionist and we are mere brief fragments of existence in the evolutionary chain. There is no greater meaning. There are no souls, there are very few mysteries. And the ones that are exist in hard science, like astronomy and particle physics, not in astrology or religion or other delusional things.

I am questioning him though. Nobody is calling me an ENTP or an Fe etc. You can view my post history going back 3 years if you like. You can look me up on Facebook, or Twitter etc. Have nothing to hide whatsoever. You can look me up and see what real people say about me.

Not to sound rude, I love you guys and respect your talents (different to mine) but compared to an actual INTJ when it comes to objectivity, he just seems like a big ball of Fe.

Another clue, the crass use of humour. Typical ENTP. eg saying "weak ass arguments dude".

His words don't match actions. The other INFJ was spot on BTW, INFJ's are often perceptive like that because of Ni. My sister is an INFJ and wicked perceptive, it's just what I do notice is that the conclusions around my motives are often wrong. But they definitely good at noticing something is "up" in the first place.

I'll leave you with one last thought. Look at Steve Jobs he is also an "asshole" but he's an ENTP.
 

Amargith

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Could it be you invoked his ENTP shadow? *curious*
 

five

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Could it be you invoked his ENTP shadow? *curious*

For sure, that is a good possibility.

Also he constantly is going on about "whipping ur ass", "skinning u alive" etc trying to show how clever he is. All I care about is truth, and this guy is an ENTP through an through. It's typical of ENTP's eg John Stewart (from the daily show). He loves to debate and mock opponents. He does so using humour, similar to Zarathustra with his smileys, "haha"'s.

NTJ's are pretty serious, it comes with Fi vs Fe.
 

Totenkindly

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Every single time their emotion gets in the way of truth when I push hard on boundaries cases. (eg stuff that they should have discarded as BS but haven't because of not having Te).He also is intelligent clearly. But so is my INTP friend. He is wickedly smart yet I constantly am adjusting him towards reality. NTP's are just not that grounded. Just like Chris Langan with an IQ of 185 believes in creationism. Smart people can be stupid. IQ is a very one dimensional measure of overall intelligence. Being able to hit a ball accurately everytime is intelligence, its an Se intelligence. He is placing his Ne skills as supreme to all, which is arrogant.

In otherwords Ni Te is actually the most objective, I am one and that's not in question. I believe in nothing superstitious whatsoever. I'm completely a reductionist and we are mere brief fragments of existence in the evolutionary chain. There is no greater meaning. There are no souls, there are very few mysteries. And the ones that are exist in hard science, like astronomy and particle physics, not in astrology or religion or other delusional things.

The part that made me laugh was this: "He is placing his Ne skills as supreme to all, which is arrogant."

I think we can expand this to, "S/he is placing his ____ skills as supreme to all, which is arrogant," where ___ can and should include any cog funct.

Framing reality in a Te way, then claiming that Te is the most grounded cog funct in reality, seems pretty circular to me.
 

Kalach

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Perhaps a thread about Te Realness? So real it's fu'real.

The measure of irony though is if it does turn out that INTJs can't do objective truth--truth without personal bias--then, by analogy, INFJs can't do pure emotion. "Feel!?" we can say, "You think your feeling is real and right and purely, intimately you? MY ASS! It's infected with some concern for truth!!! SUFFER THAT, YOU... fakers?"

Being uninfluenced by personal bias is an aim. It seems wrong to fail in that pursuit. In that respect, feeling does influence the utter fu'real truth telling of us, the tellinest tellers of truth. Feeling being relatively unconscious is also an influence, making us perhaps sometimes alter judgments--and formally make those judgments inadequate as objective conclusions--the better to accord the world to ourselves. One goal, one presumes, is to become aware of attachments and thus aware of those times when instead of using a mask of objectivity and trying to prove ourselves right, we can just say "I want".

By analogy, what's up with Fe being fake, then? Ti will play a role in Fe decision-making. Is the right thing here to say it will reduce the purity of feeling? There will not be a complete melding with the objects outside. The love will not totally conform to the object. It won't match 100% the real situation. It'll include something else.

But I'm making Fe sound too in-the-moment. The Nardi stuff points out that brain action shows Fe happens in a part of the brain that [something something something] maintains conclusion over and above momentary affect. And the kinds of "conclusion" going on will be... well there will be some kind of lack of feeling in them. There'll be some Ti influence.

WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN?!
 

INTP

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Its funny when people are projecting thwir own weaknesses onto others and are utterly unaware that they (also) posses those weaknesses, but their ego prevents them from seeing their own weaknesses, thus they see these weaknesses in others.
 

Amargith

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Can I just request right now that *if* I'm stuck in my Ti-blindspot, some Ti-user plz plz explain it to me? *paranoid*
 

five

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Framing reality in a Te way, then claiming that Te is the most grounded cog funct in reality, seems pretty circular to me.

Sorry I think you misrepresenting me Jennifer, I never once made the claim Te is the most grounded. If you think I did feel free to quote me.

Sensors are generally more grounded than Intuitives. Hence Se, Si and Te are all grounding without qualification on which is "more".

I have ISTP buddies that are very grounded. It comes from Se though not from Ti.

NTP's and NFP's seem the least grounded.

I could be wrong etc. Usual disclaimer applies. I love NTP's and NFP's nothing against them or any type (except maybe ENFJ's - whom I've noticed tend in my real life experience to be more objectively dishonest, a trait I can't stomach). Also well aware that could just be a sampling bias on my part.
 

Amargith

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Err...NFPs have Te and Si as well dude..that would make us, according to your theory, just as grounded as you.
 

five

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Err...NFPs have Te and Si as well dude..that would make us, according to your theory, just as grounded as you.

This is true. I know my fundamental argument isn't flawed but I do see the illogic in the subpoint. To assume it's not illogical or hide away from the truth would violate me. I'm not perfect and can make mistakes.

Moving on perhaps what I'm seeing is that Ne is divergent, and Ni converges. So it could actually not that the others cognitives are are grounding as much, but more the fact that, Ne tends to be more ungrounded.

Or in your opinion are all types equally grounded? Because that makes no sense to me if you implying that.
 

five

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Furthermore reality is reality and exists objectively outside our minds or how we want to frame it.

It's absolutely ludicrous to suggest or assume that Te and Ti are both equally good at dealing with actual objective reality as it exists independent from ourselves.

Te is far better at making sense of reality. There is no comparison. It's even in the definition of the functions themselves.
 

Totenkindly

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Sorry I think you misrepresenting me Jennifer, I never once made the claim Te is the most grounded. If you think I did feel free to quote me.

I did quote you. Your post here and in fact your posting over the last few days is habitually talking about how Te is the most objective function and the only real one that has any handle on the truth. Or do you miss the blatant gist of your own posts?

Yes, I understand you believe it is "true" but it's no less shrill in the extremity of your delivery. You can make a case for Te being good at what it does in the area of what it does best, but there's more to life and living than just the Te-style analysis you're touting. You're a whole person, and Te (even when coupled with Ni, a combination you seem to adore) does not address every area of life adequately.

Sensors are generally more grounded than Intuitives. Hence Se, Si and Te are all grounding without qualification on which is "more".

If you define grounded as "focused on sensing-style data," well, yes; obviously Sensing is better grounded than Intuition, which deals with insinuations of the data.

I have ISTP buddies that are very grounded. It comes from Se.

Yes. They're tapped into the raw ongoing data feed.

NTP's and NFP's seem the least grounded.

Again, defining "grounded" in a way that is convenient to your position is disingenuous.

If you want to see the forest without being confused by the trees and simply want to examine the underlying foundations principles of a logical or an ethical situation/question, then I think INPs kick ass and take names compared to other types, for example. In that situation, your approach is entirely ungrounded and irrelevant to what must be accomplished, even if in other situations your approach might indeed be the most grounded and appropriate.

It's all in the expressed needs of the moment.
 

Amargith

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This is true. I know my fundamental argument isn't flawed but I do see the illogic in the subpoint.

Then perhaps what it is is Ne is divergent, and Ni converges. So it could actually not that the others cognitives are are grounding as much, but more that Ne tends to be more ungrounded.

Or in your opinion are all types equally grounded? Because that makes no sense to me if you implying that.

Actually, I have no problem with being rather floaty compared to grounded. But I also think that this is really a matter of personal development and subjective observation, no offense. What I mean is...Ni can be mighty floating as well. Especially when Te is ignored. I don't think Ne is inherently more floaty than Ni. I do think however that Ni-floatiness isn't as in your face as Ne as Ne is an extraverted function and therefore more clearly present to outsiders. I agree that Te, but also Fe seem to have grounding qualities tying them into reality, at least to me. Again..this is subjective though. I know an ESFJ who lives and breathes reality but cannot see what's *actually* going on as she's too busy with her little rules and how things 'ought to be'. Is that grounded? I'd beg to differ. The INTP that married her is more grounded than she'll ever be, from what I can see. And Se-dom going nuts in the moment and living for the high in life...is he grounded? I sincerely doubt it. I'd say that someone who's grounded, is likely someone who's got both dom and aux function working together perfeclty. And who's able to use their Tertiary and even inferior when the situation calls for it. Who's aware that that reality isn't confined to their own preferred perspective. I'd call that grounded. Or rather..I'd say those people have the ability to be grounded when they need to be. And floaty when the situation calls for it as well.

I agree that Se, Te and Fe are likely to be more grounding than some of the other functions. But if they turn obsessive with their own truths..they very much are able to NOT be grounded.
 

Totenkindly

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Moving on perhaps what I'm seeing is that Ne is divergent, and Ni converges. So it could actually not that the others cognitives are are grounding as much, but more the fact that, Ne tends to be more ungrounded.

Ne is not an "anchoring" function, it is Pe and thus an exploring function... unless you consider it anchoring to highlight and expose the full range of possibilities in a given situation.

Then again, I could also say that Ne is connective and Ni is selective. Which is a kind of opposite flow of your pair above. Ne is finding commonality between two things, Ni is distinguishing between them.

Both comparisons seem true to me, even if compared to each other they might seem contradictory. It depends on what you are examining at the time.

Furthermore reality is reality and exists objectively outside our minds or how we want to frame it.

It's absolutely ludicrous to suggest or assume that Te and Ti are both equally good at dealing with actual objective reality as it exists independent from ourselves.

Te is far better at making sense of reality. There is no comparison. It's even in the definition of the functions themselves.

Dude.

They are different scopes.

Te is describing practical process, the specifics of what to do in order to accomplish a goal.
Ti is describing underlying principles that the Te processes use to accomplish their goals.

Why are you insisting on comparing them like this, and then definining "reality" as "whatever Te is good at"? They both deal with reality... just different aspects of reality.
 

skylights

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what is "grounded"?

NPs natively search for meaning in the spaces between things. we look where others often do not, hence they may think we are removed from reality. yet how funny it is to us that they do not see what we see so readily.

Vala Faye said:
I do think however that Ni-floatiness isn't as in your face as Ne as Ne is an extraverted function and therefore more clearly present to outsiders. I agree that Te, but also Fe seem to have grounding qualities tying them into reality, at least to me.

this is true. and as counterexample, i would definitely call my ESFJ mom more grounded in terms of practical matters - dealing with the outside world and realities of existence on a daily basis - than INTP dad. but dad runs on hard logic, so when mom's freaking out emotionally, he's a bastion of groundedness.

as for Fe fakeness...

Gingko said:
If TJs and FPs only use Fi, and Fi invariably causes Fi users to assume that displays of emotion are fake, then are demonstrations of Fe fake?

i try to think of it in terms of Fe being about "you" and Fi being about "me". Fe works on the perspective of "you" so it seeks to communicate the emotion between oneself and the other... to create/develop/maintain an external Feeling. thus Fe demonstration of emotion may seem disingenuous to an FP or TJ - because it is not a wholly personal phenomenon - and Fi checks for complete internal consistency. Fi notices that something is "missing", which is the space that Fe is allowing for the other person(s) to engage in. Fi notices that the Feeling is not entirely self-generated; it will change based upon external variables. but from a Fe perspective, not allowing that space would be self-absorbed and pointless, because a wholly personal experience cannot be shared with another.

mathematically it is like
Fe: 5x
Fi: 3

Fi: Fe, why won't you come up with a solid number of your own?
Fe: Fi, why won't you account for the external world in your choice?

Fe: because i would sacrifice being able to affect and be affected by the outside world.
Fi: because i would sacrifice the spark of individuality i bring to the world.

both are right.
 

INTP

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The reason why even Te is not objective is because it is applying the principle of reason and logic from inside to the external object in external world. because this external object(that some INTJs seem to confuse of being true in objective sense) is created by applying subjective understanding of reason and logic to the external world, it isnt objective. INTJs(and some other types like immature INTPs) dont seem to understand that the reasoning and rationalization of the external object comes from subjective reasoning and rationalization. even tho this subjective reasoning has been created by learning how the laws of reality works, it is still subjective reasoning that tries to follow the laws that the person has learned. also because it is impossible to learn all the laws of reality, this reasoning that some people see as objective, doesent cover the whole reality, it is bound to miss out something. naturally minor differences between the actual object in the external world and the image of the external object can be usually overcome by leaving out what is seen as irrelevant and having too little meaning(aka simplification), the differences between the actual object and image of the object may not be noticed. but this leaving things out is creating a subjective view on the object, because whether its true or not depends how closely the object is examined. now if there wouldnt be any simplification, it would be impossible to know everything about the object, thus the image of object is lacking and as long as the image is lacking something about the actual object, the image is subjective.

Thus even Te is subjective, even tho some people using Te dont want to see this, but tries to rationalize it. rationalization is what Te does with the external world also, bit the process of rationalization is by definition a subjective understanding because the rationalization comes from a source that is not seeing ALL of things in reality(just what the person sees as important) -> its lacking. not only that but the person has biases towards the object that he may not realize due to rationalization. rationalization like "this fits here" "this doesent matter to the end result" is subjective and people seem to have hard time understanding that. whether something is important or not to the end result depends on how accurate you want the end result to be -> its subjective whether the end result is correct or not. whether something fits is also subjective, because whether it fits or not, depends on how accurately it must fit and that is determined by the subjective factor.

Its funny how some people are unable to see obvious things like this, still they think that the other person is dumb.
 

Nicodemus

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[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7M-cmNdiFuI"]Cunt and Neetchy[/YOUTUBE]
 

INTP

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[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7M-cmNdiFuI"]Cunt and Neetchy[/YOUTUBE]

Oh now i get it. this totally debunks everything i say, because someone says that kant is wrong and apparently kant had the same kind of ideas that i have :D .

INTJ has shown his excellent reasoning skills yet again
 

Nicodemus

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Oh now i get it. this totally debunks everything i say, because someone says that kant is wrong and apparently kant had the same kind of ideas that i have :D .
Though you might hear laughin’, spinnin’, swingin’ madly across the sun
It’s not aimed at anyone, it’s just escapin’ on the run
And but for the sky there are no fences facin’
And if you hear vague traces of skippin’ reels of rhyme
To your tambourine in time, it’s just a ragged clown behind
I wouldn’t pay it any mind
It’s just a shadow you’re seein’ that he’s chasing

INTJ has shown his excellent reasoning skills yet again
I believe we only have INTP here. He's a real varmint, though.
 
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