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Thread: Fe Fakeness

  1. #681
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Ponder, conceptualise, relate to other concepts... then spit it out with the thought that it should measure up to--or somehow eventually be--some external standard.
    What do you mean by 'external standard'? A standard for communication? That would make sense, though 'standard' might be too stiff a word. Certainly, we should aim to be understandable so that we can be understood - that, in the end, is the purpose of communication. However, if by 'external standard' you mean something else, then that is not part of what I was asking for, nor do I consider it necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    But do I really want other people to stick just to that? The thought of it is both cozy and claustrophobic.
    If you feel the urge to ask yourself, the answer is probably 'no'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Pragmatically, experience seems to suggest that other types won't play ball exactly and that ultimate connection between people will fail. Unless, perhaps, there is some universal translator. But everyone would have to know that the translator existed, and would have to join in.

    Or would they?
    Actually, experience tells us that communication, if not perfect, is possible. As long as we provide context, maybe attempt to paint a picture of what the invisible looks like, we can at least approximate real understanding. That is enough for everything else; I reckon it should suffice for the question at hand.

  2. #682
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    What do you mean by 'external standard'?
    You said "then we compare". I took it a bit further and thought of it as "then we measure... and cull." Even if the goal is genuinely just to compare and finally leave the original ideas as they were, such a state can't last. It's static. Some polarising judgment is required to move things along. This will certainly happen inside the person. And they'll externalise it? Maybe they won't. Maybe they'll be polite. But the cull happens eventually anyway.

    But yeah, it's still not clear even to me what the external standard was. There was one. But what was it?

    (Holy flashbacks: is this why Fe types won't detail their plans? The shifting determination of the external standard silences them too?)

    Actually, experience tells us that communication, if not perfect, is possible.
    It does?

    I know mentation is possible. I know thought is possible. I guess in principle communication must be possible too. The Private Language Argument in reverse: if there is a private language, then there must be a real world, and connections, however tenuous, to that real world. Pathways for connection.


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  3. #683
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    You said "then we compare". I took it a bit further and thought of it as "then we measure... and cull." Even if the goal is genuinely just to compare and finally leave the original ideas as they were, such a state can't last. It's static. Some polarising judgment is required to move things along. This will certainly happen inside the person. And they'll externalise it? Maybe they won't. Maybe they'll be polite. But the cull happens eventually anyway.
    I suspect there will be but minor differences between the ideas of what truth is. The wording will differ, the details will differ and tempt some and more to argue about the whole picture, but that need not concern us. Anyway, a public discussion of this topic would sooner or later drown in metaphysics where all arguments are ultimately futile, so my aim is simply to compare. We can learn something worthwhile from comparing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    But yeah, it's still not clear even to me what the external standard was. There was one. But what was it?
    It seems to me you are looking for it in your blog, too. Endless rumination of categories, always attempting yet never able to touch the ground. My guess is the problem lies with the words. You cannot point to Ni. There is no Ni, just as there is no Paris, only a giant system of buildings, roads, people, noises, and vast complexity. When a bomb blows up in Paris, you cannot pinpoint its actual location if 'Paris' is the most fundamental category at your disposal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I know mentation is possible. I know thought is possible. I guess in principle communication must be possible too. The Private Language Argument in reverse: if there is a private language, then there must be a real world, and connections, however tenuous, to that real world. Pathways for connection.
    If we were unable to have communication, we would not be aware of misunderstandings. Oh, and how aware we are of those!

  4. #684
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by five View Post
    I'm sure the forum persona of the username Zara and others are perceived as an INTJ within this community. Multiple datapoints confirm this and reinforce that belief. I'm not disputing that.

    Let's leave that for a second however.

    Would you agree that there are degrees of belief around other people's types on the forums?
    I don't know what you mean by "degrees of belief" but I do know a lot of people on this forum (including Zara) have spent a good deal of time attempting to understand their own type. From experience, I can tell you that it is difficult to assess another individual's type. Professionals have some level of expertise and through assessments and through spending sufficient time with a person in a one on one dialogue, they can help a person to understand what type they are likely to be. I think with enough experience, you can learn to recognize certain cognitive functions that a person is using by the way they communicate. There are other methods as well - such as attempting to piece together various clues as to what someone might be - a sensor or intuitive, judger or perceiver, extravert or introvert. You can begin to guess what type they might be by things such as this. However, it is not very easy and I've spent a good deal of time attempting to both understand this and to implement it in practice over a period of many years.

    While one's own view of the world is important, we gain more robust insight and reach better decisions by trying to understand others perspectives and as Uumlau has stated, by adopting a language which is consistent with the way others communicate. I think the essential problem here may be that you are communicating in a way that others do not understand and that they feel you are not listening to what they have to say. That becomes frustrating to them. It might help to put yourself in the shoes of the person you are communicating to. If you were them, would you understand what you were saying? How would you feel if you were them? Communication is defined as a "two-way process of reaching mutual understanding, in which participants not only exchange (encode-decode) information but also create and share meaning."

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  5. #685
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    There is no true nature of truth; there are merely different definitions. To get to the bottom of our question, though, we can simply ask different types to introspect, think, ponder their words and give us a definition of their conception of truth. Then we compare.
    This stands out for me ..... so I will share my perspective on it.

    When I try to share my version of truth, which I often do here, I feel it's regularly dismissed, not taken at face value, or it is actually disagreed with. I mean, it's my vantage point, my well-considered version of truth so - give it permission to exist, thank you very much!

    At this point, I simply think it's extremely hard for most people to permit alternate views of the universe to exist. The words and thoughts from other vantage points must be evaluated as "right or wrong" and other people feel a need to justify themselves in context with those thoughts.

    I cannot think of a time on the forum where an Fe/Te dom or aux has said, "So that's how you perceive it, isn't that cool? Isn't that interesting?" and seem to really accept that. It always seems to have to go through their truth monitor too, and that monitor spits out another judgment to pronounce whether my truth is true or false. It's really very silly actually.

    btw, I am excited to entertain new ideas that challenge my ideas of truth, so it's not about a dislike of examination. I LOVE that! It's more about ... someone saying, "No, that's not how it is, that's wrong..." without any type of discourse or dialogue. And that happens here on the forum all ... the ... time.

    Somehow, in Fi dom-hood, the greatest probability exists to acknowledge individual truth and give it permission to breathe.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #686
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    This stands out for me ..... so I will share my perspective on it.

    When I try to share my version of truth, which I often do here, I feel it's regularly dismissed, not taken at face value, or it is actually disagreed with. I mean, it's my vantage point, my well-considered version of truth so - give it permission to exist, thank you very much!

    At this point, I simply think it's extremely hard for most people to permit alternate views of the universe to exist. The words and thoughts from other vantage points must be evaluated as "right or wrong" and other people feel a need to justify themselves in context with those thoughts.

    I cannot think of a time on the forum where an Fe/Te dom or aux has said, "So that's how you perceive it, isn't that cool? Isn't that interesting?" and seem to really accept that. It always seems to have to go through their truth monitor too, and that monitor spits out another judgment to pronounce whether my truth is true or false. It's really very silly actually.

    btw, I am excited to entertain new ideas that challenge my ideas of truth, so it's not about a dislike of examination. I LOVE that! It's more about ... someone saying, "No, that's not how it is, that's wrong..." without any type of discourse or dialogue. And that happens here on the forum all ... the ... time.

    Somehow, in Fi dom-hood, the greatest probability exists to acknowledge individual truth and give it permission to breathe.
    I think you talk about things that are true rather than truth itself. Our topic was the latter.

  7. #687
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I think you talk about things that are true rather than truth itself. Our topic was the latter.
    Well, no, because I recognize my truth is simply my own truth, borne out conceptually and experientially and it may not align with anyone else's.

    How is that different from the topic at hand? Explanation?

    I realize Ni truth feels like it supersedes other truths, even subsumes them, but from my vantage point, it does not.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #688
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Well, no, because I recognize my truth is simply my own truth, borne out conceptually and experientially and it may not align with anyone else's.
    Then it is so outlandish to me that I did not even recognize it.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    How is that different from the topic at hand? Explanation?
    I am not sure yet. It seems you treat truth as something that is confirmed completely internally (Kalach might be right after all). Your reply in the newly created truth thread should prove very interesting.

  9. #689
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Then it is so outlandish to me that I did not even recognize it.
    I even interpreted your comment to me, "I think you talk about things that are true rather than truth itself. Our topic was the latter." as a rendering of judgement on top of what I was trying to say up there. You served to illustrate my point, in a way. You assumed you knew what I meant and was talking about. And shared your opinion, without consulting wider, without asking any questions.

    I looked at the thread you just made, and will ponder on it. The scope seems so broad, and I am initially unsure about what I might say there.

    Thanks though ... I am only puzzled at how to overcome what feels like a continual battle to have my viewpoints recognized for the truth they are to me, and the others who align with those feelings and that truth I express.



    P.S. the word outlandish has some negative connotations, but I am choosing to ignore them atm.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #690
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I even interpreted your comment to me, "I think you talk about things that are true rather than truth itself. Our topic was the latter." as a rendering of judgement on top of what I was trying to say up there. You served to illustrate my point, in a way. You assumed you knew what I meant and was talking about. And shared your opinion, without consulting wider, without asking any questions.
    Yes, I assumed, as you just assumed you knew what I was saying. There is no other way. If we do not allow ourselves to interpret other people's words, we can just as well stop speaking. I did say 'I think', though, indicating the state of guessing I was in so that you would see both my interpretation of your words and that they did not pertain to the topic (had I interpreted them correctly).

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    P.S. the word outlandish has some negative connotations, but I am choosing to ignore them atm.
    It was meant to stress the strangeness, not to insult. You know, English is not my first language.

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