User Tag List

First 1252606162636472 Last

Results 611 to 620 of 721

Thread: Fe Fakeness

  1. #611
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    The most important thing about other people's emotions is how they make you feel? So since you feel what they feel, the very instant you walk into the room, they must make you feel better about their feelings?
    No, I feel like you SO don't get this. It's so far off-base I don't know where to start to explain. Do you truly wish to understand, and are not just poking at me? If you do, I will try ... I will try to think of something Fe-relevant.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #612
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    468 sx/sp
    Socionics
    EII None
    Posts
    4,383

    Default

    Honestly, I'm not poking at you. I left the keyboard for a while to go do stuff, and this kept running through my head. I can relate to it 100%, actually, because I pick up what other people feel, too -- but I don't expect anything from them about it. If they want to talk to about it, they will. I don't get into their business unless they do something to me or speak to me in some way that I feel I don't deserve, and even then, I will let a lot of that slide if I can see that they're upset and they're just displacing. So, honestly, in the most sincere way and not being flip, my reaction is, yeah, deal with it. I am cringing, anticipating you will think this is horrible, but I have thought about it and I don't know what else you can reasonably expect.

  3. #613
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    WHY IS TRUSTED FRIEND TRUSTED?!

    They are known to have a clearer picture? This makes sense in Te terms. Te people will, on the whole, tend to listen to another person if that person has some demonstrated authority in the current subject, or has at least the potential to be authoritative. They know their stuff so objectively one should shut their own mouth for a moment and listen up. I could see this happening with Fe too. If the other person has some demonstrated "authority"--like for example, they've heard you bitch before and have both supported and clarified, and it eased your load in a way that felt authentic--then they'll be accorded this "trust". I could see Fe types "trusting" spiritual leaders too, at least as long as those leaders didn't objectively make things worse with their teachings or their personal presentation when you met them. I could see "trust" having various degrees according to the authority the person objectively has. Is that how it works?

    I could see too that these authorities and the pathways to authority (and trust) undergo renewal from time to time. Throw in a perspective, change the big picture, see a role in a new light, and re-envision that person's position as leader. Like perhaps there's someone you trust but over the years there's this nagging "feeling" of inappropriacy that you can't place and for the longest time ignore, then one day, bam! a personal discovery leading to a new judgment and thus a new structure.


    The question of leadership remains an interesting one. It seems that what's obscuring its clarification is the the how of acquiring Fe leadership: it's not assumed by one person, it's given by other people! Fe types grant other people a leadership role for them. THEY TRUST SOMEONE, and voila, that person is the leader.

    But there's some dynamism to it too. This perhaps accounts for that peculiar feature of particularly ENFJ leadership, where they lead like the bejesus and yet maintain they aren't leading at all.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  4. #614
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    11,122

    Default

    The people whom I trust in situation where I have to make decisions are usually people who have a proven track record of having knowledge in the area I am consulting them, understand me well enough that their response is not going to just create more emotional noise to wade through, and whom I've observed as people who generally have good judgement and are level-headed. I think yes, I do accord varying levels of trust to people depending on how long I have known them, in what capacity, the variety of situations I've seen them in and how they've handled them, my closeness to them, my ability to have conflict with them and still successfully come out the other side, etc. I don't think authority would by any means automatically give me trust in someone. I usually need a period of observation (both personal and second hand) first.

    Tilty's post before also reminded me of why I tend to trust a person. Someone who can successfully help me determine the why of a situation is someone who has performed a great service for me. I can't rest until I know the why of things and in the absence of any information to work with, I am compelled to consider all of the possible reasons and pick the most likely, although I am aware this can result in an inaccurate assessment. There's almost nothing more emotionally disturbing to me than not understanding the why though. With the why answered, I not only can shift my perspective to accommodate much better, but I also can determine what the most useful response in that situation would be.

  5. #615
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    468 sx/sp
    Socionics
    EII None
    Posts
    4,383

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    WHY IS TRUSTED FRIEND TRUSTED?!

    They are known to have a clearer picture? This makes sense in Te terms. Te people will, on the whole, tend to listen to another person if that person has some demonstrated authority in the current subject, or has at least the potential to be authoritative. They know their stuff so objectively one should shut their own mouth for a moment and listen up. I could see this happening with Fe too. If the other person has some demonstrated "authority"--like for example, they've heard you bitch before and have both supported and clarified, and it eased your load in a way that felt authentic--then they'll be accorded this "trust". I could see Fe types "trusting" spiritual leaders too, at least as long as those leaders didn't objectively make things worse with their teachings or their personal presentation when you met them. I could see "trust" having various degrees according to the authority the person objectively has. Is that how it works?
    Yes. Pretty much. I would say "guide" rather than "leader," and according to how much clarity they are able to provide rather than how much authority, but I think that may just be semantics. My NT that I go to when all else fails has proven himself over many years time to be kind and just and to be able and willing to verify for me or make me see that it isn't so.

    The other Trusted Friend is the one who gives you a cup of tea and lets you talk until you figure it out yourself, which is often what INFJ needs, just to get it out of our heads. Once we hear ourselves talking, the picture firms up and we realize what picture we're describing, so we know what to do for ourselves.

    What other kind of leadership is there except the kind people give you? (I never thought about it too much before.)

  6. #616
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    11,122

    Default

    Yeah, that describes it nicely.

  7. #617
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    Something disturbing me here is the nonchalance with which you guys talk of talking through some feeling. I accept that this is your area and you're as able to know and speak clearly of these things as I am in what interests me, but there's another conceptual block going on. I acknowledge that it's a block, not a disproof. It's this: I can quite easily believe in a person's ability to describe mechanisms of the world--using models, forms, shapes, talk of causes and the way things happen or should happen. For these things, in my humble estimation, there are words. But you're talking about talking about feelings!

    Feelings have mechanisms? There's forms? And causes? There are models for describing these things independent of individuals? THERE ARE MODELS THAT GENUINELY ARE DESCRIPTIVE?!

    Ah, LOL. It took me a while to work out how to write all that and right now, just this minute, it comes to me that all that Ti claiming that went on earlier about how nothing is objective... an Fi type insisting that there never can be a system to feeling interaction between people, this is the same deal. DOWN WITH OBJECTIVITY! YOU CAN"T KNOW WHAT I FEEL! Fi FOR LIFE!



    BUT ALL THAT ASIDE...

    I said earlier that a Te type would listen to someone if that someone were authoritative. The measure of that authority would be the Te of the listener. As soon as the person with authority makes a mistake, they lose part of their position as guide or leader. It's all supposed to add up for everyone. The Te story of whatever the subject is, is supposed to be accessible, reasonable, understandable to all--independent of the speaker. As soon as the authority engages in obfuscation or rests (too heavily) on their "authority" as proof of their position, they're demoted.

    There perhaps by analogy is Fe authenticity. If the story of your feeling as explained (or helped to expression) by the authority rings false then... well, I don't know. Who loses authenticity then? Or do they just lose authority?


    Oh god, this is all "feelings". How can feelings have "system"?!
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  8. #618
    resonance entropie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    MBTI
    entp
    Enneagram
    783
    Posts
    16,761

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Something disturbing me here is the nonchalance with which you guys talk of talking through some feeling. I accept that this is your area and you're as able to know and speak clearly of these things as I am in what interests me, but there's another conceptual block going on. I acknowledge that it's a block, not a disproof. It's this: I can quite easily believe in a person's ability to describe mechanisms of the world--using models, forms, shapes, talk of causes and the way things happen or should happen. For these things, in my humble estimation, there are words. But you're talking about talking about feelings!

    Feelings have mechanisms? There's forms? And causes? There are models for describing these things independent of individuals? THERE ARE MODELS THAT GENUINELY ARE DESCRIPTIVE?!

    Ah, LOL. It took me a while to work out how to write all that and right now, just this minute, it comes to me that all that Ti claiming that went on earlier about how nothing is objective... an Fi type insisting that there never can be a system to feeling interaction between people, this is the same deal. DOWN WITH OBJECTIVITY! YOU CAN"T KNOW WHAT I FEEL! Fi FOR LIFE!



    BUT ALL THAT ASIDE...

    I said earlier that a Te type would listen to someone if that someone were authoritative. The measure of that authority would be the Te of the listener. As soon as the person with authority makes a mistake, they lose part of their position as guide or leader. It's all supposed to add up for everyone. The Te story of whatever the subject is, is supposed to be accessible, reasonable, understandable to all--independent of the speaker. As soon as the authority engages in obfuscation or rests (too heavily) on their "authority" as proof of their position, they're demoted.

    There perhaps by analogy is Fe authenticity. If the story of your feeling as explained (or helped to expression) by the authority rings false then... well, I don't know. Who loses authenticity then? Or do they just lose authority?


    Oh god, this is all "feelings". How can feelings have "system"?!
    Regarding point 2:

    A leader shouldnt loose his competence if he makes a mistake. That would be in a robot army. Of leaders it is expected to make the most minimal amount of mistakes possible but leaders are nothing but humans as well. And if you yourself have ever been in a leadership position, you'd know that leading often means to take risks and those risks are always prone to be mistakes.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #619
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Regarding point 2:

    A leader shouldnt loose his competence if he makes a mistake.
    In practice, no. In principle though, as soon as there has been some mis-match between what the authority says and what the rest of the robot army can see, then that authority is over. This is extroverted thinking after all: the highest authority is the world itself and any given person is but a messenger. Individuals are supposed to maintain an independence that positively requires that they see for themselves. So the art of peculiarly extroverted judgment authority lies in making it possible for other people to see the world as it is. And perhaps in the case of extroverted feeling authority, to feel the world as it is?

    I'm going on and on about this because I'm trying to get at the actual habit individual people seem to have when in thrall of Je, namely that of being directive. They assume authority. They assume the right to explain and dictate. They tell it like it is.

    It's a bit mysterious though. Te types in Te thrall will "tell it like it is." They'll want to lay out a descriptive story that's supposed to be shared, and checked and then used as a frame for... whatever, further thought, some action, a picnic. But what's the analogous Fe-type-in-Fe-thrall action? Do they "tell it", lay it out in impersonal words? Do they emote it like it is, splashing out with histrionic gestures or Hindu calm faces or whatever? Do they have a goal?


    Eh, whatever. The discussion is supposed in the end to describe the mechanisms of what's afoot. I'm in Te thrall and looking for actionable structures (with maybe some Fi notes thrown in on where there's supposed to be nodes of universal value and thus respect).
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  10. #620
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    MBTI
    ZZZZ
    Enneagram
    5w6
    Posts
    141

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    That might be what I was asking for. It should answer the question: What makes a statement true? If you do that, you have answered my request.
    NTJ approach is bayesian
    NTP approach is frequentist

    NTJ approaches truth a priori
    NTP approaches truth a posteriori

    I haven't seen another INTJ on these forums yet. And until there is Se around here, things will be skewed. I have seen NTP's act like NTJ's on here though. Eg Steve Jobs appeared ENTJ, because of the environmental effect of ENTJ friend and rival Bill Gates over 25 years.

    I know the argument style of NTJ and approach a mile away. Spent 10 years with both NTP and NTJ frameworks.

    Ignore what I'm saying (aggravates Fe) or treat it as a 50/50 (Ti) "opinion", at your own expense to expedient learning.

Similar Threads

  1. [Fe] Any INFJs who think Fe is "fake"?
    By SilkRoad in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 46
    Last Post: 12-26-2011, 12:42 AM
  2. [NF] Other NF's hate salespeople's fake Fe?
    By Lily flower in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 10-15-2011, 11:09 AM
  3. [Fe] Is Fe fake or manipulative?
    By jixmixfix in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 341
    Last Post: 08-05-2011, 11:28 PM
  4. [Fe] Fe is fake and manipulative (proofs inside)
    By INTP in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 07-21-2011, 01:04 AM
  5. [Fe] Fe: No cute title...I just don't get it
    By sakuraba in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 106
    Last Post: 11-18-2008, 09:07 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO