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Thread: Fe Fakeness

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    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Both of these are kind of dumb analogies, but maybe they help to illustrate the point.

    I sort of see emotions as being like a fish and having someone squirt red food colouring in the water. While the dye affects me, it isn't really a part of me. It takes awhile for the colouring in the water to eventually settle on the bottom and me be able to see clearly again. If I can ask someone I trust how it looks to them, since I'm in the middle of the clouded water and can't see well, they can help me navigate out of it. Once I either get out, or the dye has had time to settle, then I can start thinking about where it came from, how I can keep that from happening in the same way again (or is it just some kind of environmental hazard that I need to learn to work around), what my response should be, whether or not it has a toxic effect or is really fairly benign, etc. It either takes time or someone else's help to help me feel that I am seeing clearly enough to take action. Therefore my first priority is getting the water back to a normal colour or else finding some clean water to move to. After the fact, I'll analyze it till the cows come home.

    Or maybe someone turns the radio on full blast. I can't concentrate on what the radio signal is giving me until I can get it turned down to a bearable level or I can get it tuned in more clearly to the channel that will give me the information I need. Offering to analyze the sounds I'm hearing before we get those first things out of the way seems ridiculously unhelpful to me.

    I'm curious how it would feel approaching it from the opposite side. I also wonder what it's like for Thinkers who are Fi users. I can't quite get my head around it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    But, as I said before, you are going too far in projecting that other's problems are always primarily emotional.

    I think you are doing this because, for you, the primary problem does tend to be emotional: Fi is dominant.

    But, for others, while an emotion might be part of it, the primary problem might be rational.

    You never got back to me as you said you would after I raised this issue earlier.
    hmm, let's see if I can try to do this justice.

    Sorry if I am not clear.

    I am not saying that people's problems are primarily emotional (although, that is quite possibly favorably arguable in and of itself). And I am not projecting my experience onto other people (or at least, I try to avoid that, since I often vibe on emotions that I don't fully understand in context and relying on my own internal vault of emotional definitions might be too limited or vague.)

    What I have found is that many problems presenting as logistical do evoke a visceral, potentially emotional response in the person with the issue, even if it's not as palpable to the person having the feeling in the moment. Me, I sense the disturbing emotion far ahead of being predictive as to cause. You could walk in the room and I will sense you vibing disconnect, and it is not until that moment that you have my attention. Then, my own internal state is defaulted to a lower priority than your own (that's probably a 9 thing there, not an Fi thing per se) so I can more fully analyze you. If it's just you being pissed off that the pencil sharpener is broken, I downgrade the internal alarm and still watch to see if there's something else more over-arching, something cumulative.

    So for me, it is simply my personal starting point. I probably didn't realize the pencil sharpener needed fixing until I noticed it was aggravating to you and that propelled me to fix the problem.

    Te might assume that if they can address my problem, they will fix my emotions. For Te people, I work that angle.

    My (Fi) assumption may be that if I can address the emotions, I can fix the problem. For people issues, I work that angle.

    Ni-Fe might assume if they address the context or perspective, they fix the problems and / or the emotions.

    Changing perspectives is my personal challenge area, and it requires I work harder because you aren't using a metric that is as natural to me, although context can change my emotions, and I do sift stuff and have reframed areas of my personal life to help alleviate an emotional component.

    My caution is to not assume either 1.) the emotion or 2.) the cause. That's where extra data gathering is necessary to avoid dangerous presumption. The best thing I can be is a guide to unearth something that either a person can fix themselves or I can brainstorm a fix for. Many people however are dismissive of "non-credentialed" brainstorming and that's another hurdle beyond the purview of this post.

    To reiterate, the emotion is the signal to me that there's a problem in the first place. I have learned that some people do not wish their emotions to be focussed on. I would say, this is maybe 20% of people overall. Most people do want to either vent or be commiserated with. I can grow impatient if you wish to wallow where you are and not fix your problems to fix your emotional state and return to equilibrium and grow.

    But to me, to use @Seymour 's previous analogy, your emotions are like a crying baby, I find them very hard not to pay attention to in the first place.

    I do think Fi dom picks up on these subtle cues before any other type.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #593
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Both of these are kind of dumb analogies, but maybe they help to illustrate the point.

    I sort of see emotions as being like a fish and having someone squirt red food colouring in the water. While the dye affects me, it isn't really a part of me. It takes awhile for the colouring in the water to eventually settle on the bottom and me be able to see clearly again. If I can ask someone I trust how it looks to them, since I'm in the middle of the clouded water and can't see well, they can help me navigate out of it. Once I either get out, or the dye has had time to settle, then I can start thinking about where it came from, how I can keep that from happening in the same way again (or is it just some kind of environmental hazard that I need to learn to work around), what my response should be, whether or not it has a toxic effect or is really fairly benign, etc. It either takes time or someone else's help to help me feel that I am seeing clearly enough to take action. Therefore my first priority is getting the water back to a normal colour or else finding some clean water to move to. After the fact, I'll analyze it till the cows come home.

    Or maybe someone turns the radio on full blast. I can't concentrate on what the radio signal is giving me until I can get it turned down to a bearable level or I can get it tuned in more clearly to the channel that will give me the information I need. Offering to analyze the sounds I'm hearing before we get those first things out of the way seems ridiculously unhelpful to me.

    I'm curious how it would feel approaching it from the opposite side. I also wonder what it's like for Thinkers who are Fi users. I can't quite get my head around it.
    I swim in the red water, and listen to the radio - does that help?

    All that stuff is all around me, and since I can't just jump out of the water or stop hearing the bad music, I just deal with it?

    (And they are great analogies, btw.)
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #594
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I am not saying that people's problems are primarily emotional (although, that is quite possibly favorably arguable in and of itself).
    I'm saying that I think your genuine belief is far more in the parentheses.

    And I think that that line of argumentation is false.

    I think that you believe it to be the case because it is the case for you.

    I am not, however, denying that emotional components can be part of the issue.

    I'm just saying, as I said before, that for some people, they are not the primary issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    And I am not projecting my experience onto other people (or at least, I try to avoid that, since I often vibe on emotions that I don't fully understand in context and relying on my own internal vault of emotional definitions might be too limited or vague.)
    What I'm saying is that I think that you do tend to do this, in a specific sense: in the sense that you tend to think that their emotions are the issue. I'm not saying that you don't move forward with caution, try to understand the situation for what it is, taking care not to make bad assumptions. I'm just saying that, because the problem is usually an emotional problem for yourself, I think I notice you assuming it's the same for other people. This is more of an observation taken from my entire time here, and using some other peoples' independent observations that jibe with my own.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    What I have found is that many problems presenting as logistical do evoke a visceral, potentially emotional response in the person with the issue...
    I agree with this.

    But this does not mean that the primary problem is emotional.

    The primary problem is the factual problem, which then, secondarily, might cause a visceral, emotional response.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Me, I sense the disturbing emotion far ahead of being predictive as to cause.
    I know.

    But that's not the case for everybody.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    You could walk in the room and I will sense you vibing disconnect, and it is not until that moment that you have my attention. Then, my own internal state is defaulted to a lower priority than your own (that's probably a 9 thing there, not an Fi thing per se) so I can more fully analyze you. If it's just you being pissed off that the pencil sharpener is broken, I downgrade the internal alarm and still watch to see if there's something else more over-arching, something cumulative.
    I touch on the pencil sharpener metaphor later.

    It's key, so watch for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    So for me, it is simply my personal starting point. I probably didn't realize the pencil sharpener needed fixing until I noticed it was aggravating to you and that propelled me to fix the problem.
    I touch on this later, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Te might assume that if they can fix my problem, they will fix my emotions. For Te people, I work that angle.

    My (Fi) assumption may be that if I can fix the emotions, I can fix the problem. For people issues, I work that angle.
    @bolded: ok, well that's good. The problem I see though is right below the bolded: if you assume every issue is a people issue, then these two rules conflict with one another.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Changing perspectives is my personal challenge area, and it requires I work harder because you aren't using a metric that is as natural to me, although context can change my emotions, and I do sift stuff and have reframed areas of my personal life to help alleviate an emotional component.
    I do think this tends to be harder for Fi dom's and aux's. The emotional response is so strong, the desire to shift perspective to see things from a different angle is not strong enough to win the battle. Frankly, it's annoying, imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    To reiterate, the emotion is the signal to me that there's a problem in the first place.
    This is fine.

    That can be the warning signal.

    It just doesn't mean that the actual problem is an emotional one.

    As you point to here...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I have learned that some people do not wish their emotions to be focussed on. I would say, this is maybe 20% of people overall. Most people do want to either vent or be commiserated with.
    While 20% may not want their emotions to be focused on, I'd say there's still a larger % for whom the emotion is not the real issue. They might not have a problem dealing with the emotional side (honestly, I would assume the 20% of which you speak have trouble with their emotions [probably ETJs, maybe some others]), but that doesn't mean that "dealing with that side" is really gunna fix the problem. The problem that needs to be fixed is that the pencil sharpener needs to be fixed. Once that's done: emotional response gone. Tending to my frustration as opposed to the pencil opener is mostly a waste of time, imo. I'll probably talk with you about my frustration anyway, if you bring it up, but that's just cuz I can tell that that's how you deal with things, and I'm trying to keep things socially proper. The truth is: I just want the damn pencil sharpener fixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I can grow impatient if you wish to wallow where you are and not fix your problems to fix your emotional state and return to equilibrium and grow.
    Ditto.

    FiSi wallowing pisses me off.

    It's unproductive.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    But to me, to use @Seymour 's previous analogy, your emotions are like a crying baby, I find them very hard not to pay attention to in the first place.

    I do think Fi dom picks up on these subtle cues before any other type.
    I'm not saying this isn't true, but it's always a bit odd to me why Fe wouldn't pick up on it first... what I am saying, though, is: just cuz the first thing you pick up on is the emotional vibe, doesn't mean that's what the person actually needs to be dealt with. And to assume that it is is projecting (whether accurate or not).

  5. #595
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    What I am saying, though, is: just cuz the first thing you pick up on is the emotional vibe, doesn't mean that's what the person needs to be dealt with.
    Everything I have said agrees with that - what are you arguing?

    All I am saying is the first thing I notice is the emotion. I won't notice the broken sharpener first. I'll notice it makes someone mad. Then, I try to tailor the response to how well I know the person. Ergo, for many, it does not mean focussing on the emotions at all. It means just fixing the sharpener.

    What is of note, is that Ni TO ME can have a confusing element to it, in that I read the emotion, but you fix it using a technique I seldom use myself, which is a perspective shift to reframe the whole issue and eradicate the emotional components of the problem.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #596
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    OMG, you're doing massive edits @Zarathustra - I'll wait ...
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Everything I have said agrees with that - what are you arguing?
    What I'm saying is what I wrote in those first quotes you compiled and said you'd get back to me on:

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra
    It allows you to boil all T down to really just having an F root.

    And thus Ts, when it really comes down to it, aren't do anything other than F.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra
    Once again, you seem to be ascribing too much Feeling motive to a Thinker, which you (and most Feelers) seem very wont to do.
    Ah I see what you are getting on about ... I'll need to think about this for a bit, before I can respond.
    I think we might've also pm'ed about it.

    My point is that I think you do this all the time.

    You assume that for us Ts, that when we have an issue it's because of some emotion.

    And, as I said in those quotes, I think this is false, and is caused by Fs projecting and trying to boil all things down to some F root.

    And I'm not saying there's not a complex interrelationship and dynamic between T functions and F functions.

    I'm just saying that what Fs often try to accomplish is to make all T into nothing more than F at its core.

    And I think this is a false construction.

    Frankly, I think it's caused by Fs' will to power.

    I don't think Fs want to grant Ts greater objectivity, and thus want to boil all T down to F.

    This way, they can just say that Ts aren't really objectively talking about the matter at hand, they're just expressing an emotion.

    In fact, I would surmise that, right now, every F who doesn't like what I'm saying is trying to do precisely what I'm saying they do.

    "He's not talking objectively about a phenomenon in the world... he's just venting his subjective feelings blah blah blah blah blah"

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    OMG, you're doing massive edits @Zarathustra - I'll wait ...
    Well, yeah... duhhh!



    *been done for 5 minutes now, tho*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I'm saying that I think your genuine belief is far more in the parentheses.

    And I think that that line of argumentation is false.

    I think that you believe it to be the case because it is the case for you.
    So, you are saying I am a liar here, that I am being disingenuous? That's a perfectly serious question, because that is what you are implying.

    I am not, however, denying that emotional components can be part of the issue.

    I'm just saying, as I said before, that for some people, they are not the primary issue.
    Let's talk about the pencil sharpener again. Perhaps it makes you angry because you have an anger management problem, and abandonment issues as a child. That COULD be a relevant answer to why such a little problem makes you so damned angry. Fixing the sharpener is a short term fix but you've got bigger issues that truly need attention. I most certainly DO NOT think that every problem is an emotional one, but I will say that MORE problems have an emotional origin than a person is generally aware of.

    What I'm saying is that I think that you do tend to do this, in a specific sense: in the sense that you tend to think that their emotions are the issue. I'm not saying that you don't move forward with caution, try to understand the situation for what it is, taking care not to make bad assumptions. I'm just saying that, because the problem is usually an emotional problem for yourself, I think I notice you assuming it's the same for other people. This is more of an observation taken from my entire time here, and using some other peoples' independent observations that jibe with my own.
    I hear what you are inferring. I don't think Jim's emotions were the issue - but I tried to address his emotions FIRST to more fully understand the issue. Otherwise, you INTJ's are no different than your INFJ cousins, expecting people to be mind-readers then eviscerating them when they don't guess correctly.

    I also think Jim's issues are much farther-reaching than just being intractable on the forum, but again, that explanation is inappropriate here and beyond the purview of this post.

    I do think this tends to be harder for Fi dom's and aux's. The emotional response is so strong, the desire to shift perspective to see things from a different angle is not strong enough to win the battle. Frankly, it's annoying, imo.
    Perhaps you forget too I am at a different life stage. I am not the 20-something NFP's - I swim with my red water, come hell or high-water, and for some reason, that is how I am supposed to do this, even if it means I did have to learn to jump out of the tank too. I am not an Ni dom, I am not wired to just rethink a problem and ta-da, emotional problem solved. Of course, I do problem-solve, and that DOES often alleviate the emotional noise. But that's a fundamentally different approach I think.

    While 20% may not want their emotions to be focused on, I'd say there's still a larger % for whom the emotion is not the real issue. They might not have a problem dealing with the emotional side (honestly, I would assume the 20% of which you speak have trouble with their emotions [probably ETJs, maybe some others]), but that doesn't mean that "dealing with that side" is really gunna fix the problem. The problem that needs to be fixed is that the pencil sharpener needs to be fixed. Once that's done: emotional response gone. Tending to my frustration as opposed to the pencil opener is mostly a waste of time, imo. I'll probably talk with you about my frustration anyway, if you bring it up, but that's just cuz I can tell that that's how you deal with things, and I'm trying to keep things socially proper. The truth is: I just want the damn pencil sharpener fixed.
    I disagree. I just pulled that % out of my butt anyway, so you shouldn't focus on it like gospel. Not wanting to pay attention to the emotional state or deeming it irrelevant is a totally different matter than having "emotional problems".

    FiSi wallowing pisses me off.
    This is not exclusively an Fi - Si thing and I did not present it as such. Your inference is too specific.

    It's unproductive.
    Not always. It's what we have to learn to use to empower ourselves and manage well.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    My point is that I think you do this all the time.

    You assume that for us Ts, that when we have an issue it's because of some emotion.

    And, as I said in those quotes, I think this is false, and is caused by Fs projecting and trying to boil all things down to some F root.

    And I'm not saying there's not a complex interrelationship and dynamic between T functions and F functions.

    I'm just saying that what Fs often try to accomplish is to make all T into nothing more than F at its core.

    And I think this is a false construction.

    Frankly, I think it's caused by Fs' will to power.

    I don't think Fs want to grant Ts greater objectivity, and thus want to boil all T down to F.

    This way, they can just say that Ts aren't really objectively talking about the matter at hand, they're just expressing an emotion.

    In fact, I would surmise that, right now, every F who doesn't like what I'm saying is trying to do precisely what I'm saying they do.

    "He's not talking objectively about a phenomenon in the world... he's just venting his subjective feelings blah blah blah blah blah"
    I don't think this at all.

    Explanation will have to come later, I have tasks to attend to.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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