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Fe Fakeness

five

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To be honest, I've never found your posts interesting enough to read them in any level of detail and thus determine whether talking about how much you (and others) suck is representative of your style... :)

With regards to our discussion earlier, this is an example of a post with plenty of Feeling information, but almost no Content information.

I suppose another way of looking at it is T/F divide.
 

SilkRoad

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With regards to our discussion earlier, this is an example of a post with plenty of Feeling information, but almost no Content information.

I suppose another way of looking at it is T/F divide.

Oh no. I'm just telling the truth.
 

five

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Oh no. I'm just telling the truth.

I agree with you, that you are telling the truth, if we define the word "truth" on your own terms, and hence truth for you is subjective.

Why should we care how you feel though?

How is what you posted relevant to furthering the discussion and arriving at objective truth about a topic?
 

SilkRoad

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I agree you are if we define it on your own terms as truth for you is subjective.

Why should we care how you feel?

How is what you posted relevant to furthering the discussion and arriving at objective truth about a topic?

What qualifies you to say that my entire view of truth is subjective? Who's to say that yours isn't? Why should I care about your views on truth?

Saying that my view of truth is subjective is a subjective judgment.
 

five

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What qualifies you to say that my entire view of truth is subjective? Who's to say that yours isn't? Why should I care about your views on truth?

Nearly all discussions with INFJ's end in silly "me vs you" debates against my wishes to stay on topic. I'll admit I did question you, so you are reacting to that.

However, I have no further interest in pursuing personal relations between us. Just like I am able to say with full confidence that an INFJ is more friendly and has better people skills than an INTJ, if you don't or can't see that an INTJ is more objective in reality than an INFJ is then that is your delusion to deal with.
 

SilkRoad

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Nearly all discussions with INFJ's end in silly me vs you debates against my wishes to stay on topic.

I would question how INTJs being insulting (as per my comments on Zara's comments earlier) help with staying on topic or getting closer to the objective truth.

You haven't clarified that, nor have you told me why I should care about your views on truth, or explained to me how you're being objective while I'm being subjective.

If you're basing the objective/subjective thing on the fact that I have INFJ posted as my type, you're being subjective as hell about your whole approach.


EDIT: Personal relations? :laugh: if this is your idea of "personal relations", you really don't know much about what INFJs are like. I assure you I'm not trying to befriend you or hit on you.
 

Z Buck McFate

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And it's easier to convince Te, btw, because it's objectively objective as opposed to objectively subjective.

Yeah, I’m sorry, but there’s nothing ‘objectively objective’ about the human thought process. The product may have ‘objective’ status once it’s screened by enough people, but a thought process can not be ‘objectively objective’ (though I’ve noticed Te’ers are the most likely to kid themselves and believe so). Fi is right there, at least in the back seat, telling Te where to go- and the less a Te’er is willing to acknowledge that, the more annoying they are to deal with. Not simply because it’s ‘rude’, but because it’s anti-dialogical (rendering discourse a moot point) and because they tend to believe they are asserting THE TRUTH AS IT SHOULD APPLY TO EVERYONE instead of what seems true to them (however ‘clearly’ they see it).

It seems to me like I’m hearing an argument that INTJs ‘work with details and get frustrated at having to incorporate feeling judgment into their reasoning’, having to take Fe rules into account while looking for ‘the truth’, like that’s the crux of the problem. But honestly, I think sometimes Te likes to fool itself and believe it’s objective- as if it’s possible to think without adding some element of feeling judgment- when it’s actually largely fueled by Fi agenda. This is most obvious when the points being made look irrational to everyone but the person making them (and anyone who happens to share a similar emo-charged sentiment). It isn’t that Te’ers aren’t willing to incorporate ‘feeling judgment’ so much as they aren’t willing to incorporate others’ feeling judgment- or any judgment that doesn’t already match their own- into a working common ‘truth’ base to build mutual understanding on. It’s a potential shortcoming of all Je dom & aux (in part, also, because perception is introverted- we're not as mercurial with external input). I don’t think the entire problem here is that the Fe’ers are expecting too much ‘politeness’ so much as they get frustrated with Te ‘misdirection’ back towards it’s own opinion over and over again. They are that in love with their own opinion sometimes. Reciprocally, it seems like Te’ers get frustrated when Fe’ers (but mostly Ti’ers, since Fe doms rarely get into these discussions) try to ‘misdirect’ them away from their isolated version of ‘objective truth’ (as Kalach put it in the other thread, “personalized objective truth”).



Yes, which is why, as Nicodemus pointed to in an earlier post, in real life, when things have real consequences, we don't use the same exact same approach as we would on an internet forum.

This is peculiar, coming from someone who’s just done a lot of preaching about how the forum consequences are too severe. Is the issue that you believe forum consequences should be different from irl, and you’re aggravated that they’re not?
 

SilkRoad

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^ +1. Anyone who thinks they're being 100% objective, and that they've freed themselves from bias and subjectivity, is seriously kidding themselves.
 

five

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^ +1. Anyone who thinks they're being 100% objective, and that they've freed themselves from bias and subjectivity, is seriously kidding themselves.

Agreed 100%.

I have biases. For example I often forget others are not as rational or unemotional in their responses. I have to always remember to put other people's communications through a bias filter.

Another bias INTJ's have is jumping to conclusions too quickly, or not taking into account current realities. (In recent years I've been working hard at my Se's to counter that)

Having said that, you are simply delusional (and others) who go around NOT acknowledging the rank of skills and authority that exists in society.

Te does ranking, Ti does not.

If for example my objectivity level is 97% and yours is 83% then I am more objective than you, even if you feel uncomfortable with that. Everything is becoming more and more quantifiable as time marches on.

The zone of "mysteriousness" shrinks every single year. Can you not see that?

NF's tend to be mystical because they do not have developed Te's.
 

SilkRoad

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Having said that, you are simply delusional (and others) who go around NOT acknowledging the rank of skills and authority that exists in society.

Te does ranking, Ti does not.

If for example my objectivity level is 97% and yours is 83% then I am more objective than you, even if you feel uncomfortable with that. Everything is becoming more and more quantifiable as time marches on.

Ok. Why don't you tell me what this magical objectivity measure is? Is it a scale that you can stand on? How do you quantify it?

I'll just say it: I think a lot of you people can talk the talk but you can't walk the walk. If you could walk the walk, you wouldn't resort to attempts at intellectual quantifying that don't exist, or to name-calling, or saying that you're not going to discuss this with me because I'm incapable of objectivity/Te because I'm an INFJ - or whatever it is.

The fact that your type need to put others down to prove your point just tells me that objectively, you can't really prove your point and have got a lot less of a leg to stand on than you'd like to think you do.


EDIT: By the way, you sure you're not an ESTJ? They seem the most obsessed with rank/social class in my experience.
 

Totenkindly

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Most of the descriptions of Fe make it sound rather shallow and Fi is so profound but I guess that could be said of the extroverted vs. introverted functions.

*shrug*

They both have different purposes. To say one purpose is stupid and another one important (as often seems to be done) is just short-sightedness. Each is useful in the right situation. I just think a lack of life experience + overreliance on intellectualism (rather than life engagement) results in these kind of oversights... fortunately something that life itself can remedy after enough time passes. Hey, it happened for me, so I guess it can work for anyone...

Having said that, you are simply delusional (and others) who go around NOT acknowledging the rank of skills and authority that exists in society.

Te does ranking, Ti does not.

If for example my objectivity level is 97% and yours is 83% then I am more objective than you, even if you feel uncomfortable with that. Everything is becoming more and more quantifiable as time marches on.

The zone of "mysteriousness" shrinks every single year. Can you not see that?

NF's tend to be mystical because they do not have developed Te's.

Hmmm. Well, theory would say that Fe and Te occupy the same "slots" so to speak -- both are Je auxiliaries. Therefore both should have equal treatement/applicability within their spheres of influence, correct? What do you mean by objectivity? I would daresay that Fe is much more objective where people's rights and privileges within a community are being observed than Te is, since Te treats people like machines and misses an entire aspect of their personhood, where Fe is actually evaluating things based on the rules appropriate to communities; Te is way out of its jurisdiction and unable to provide an appropriate response and is still trying to fit square blocks into round holes.

Objectivity, my ass. Let's discuss quantitative vs qualitative if you'd like, but your post places a subjective bias in favor of Te, just like everyone else's posts tends to reflect the perspective approaches they favor.
 

INTP

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^ +1. Anyone who thinks they're being 100% objective, and that they've freed themselves from bias and subjectivity, is seriously kidding themselves.

Objectivity is just an illusion, caused by the over rationalization of ones own subjective view.
 

Southern Kross

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Van der Hoop says that the Fi type is more aware of inner conflicts, conflicts with the self & the environment, and conflicts within others; but the Fe type is NOT always aware of all of these conflicts, or not to the same degree (While the Fe-type will repress, for the sake of harmony, things both in himself and in the external world which do not accord with his ideal, the Fi-type will remain more aware of such conflicts). The Fe type can be unaware that their expressed feeling does not match their inner feeling, thus appearing fake to others* (see below quote). The Fe type, however, does not FEEL fake because feeling to them is what is appropriate externally (Jung: "it has freed itself as fully as possible from the subjective factor, and has, instead, become wholly subordinated to the influence of the object."). The inner feeling is suppressed, and they remain unaware of any inner conflict (this is the reverse of how Fi types resist external influence on their Feeling). However, the Fi type IS aware of it in themselves & often in others if they get enough Pe data. So for those who get mad when an ENFP claims to see a feeling in you that you don't feel, maybe they're right! ;) Take it up with Jung if you don't like it (get some INFJ to channel him for you :tongue: ).
I think the bolded really is the crux of the matter. 'Fakeness' is rather a misnomer for the broader issue that is being discussed. Rarely do you find people that are outright affected. Mostly the lack of 'authenticity' Fi users refer to is more in the sense of repression and denial of conflicting emotions (both external and internal). This is not really an attempt at dishonesty on behalf of the Fe-user (whatever the Fi-users may say) but an effort to establish stability and consistency within themselves and those around them. They choose the most suitable emotion to demonstrate (among the many that are felt) and withhold/suppress the rest for the sake of social cohesion and expediency. It's like emotional democracy. Unfortunately, Fi users feel this devalues the complexities of human emotion and denies a more essential truth.

BTW Interesting quotes and references OA. Do you have those on tap? :D
 

five

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Fe = subjective truth
Fi = objective truth (more around the TJ Fi's though)
 

Crescent Fresh

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Fi is right there, at least in the back seat, telling Te where to go- and the less a Te’er is willing to acknowledge that, the more annoying they are to deal with. Not simply because it’s ‘rude’, but because it’s anti-dialogical (rendering discourse a moot point) and because they tend to believe they are asserting THE TRUTH AS IT SHOULD APPLY TO EVERYONE instead of what seems true to them (however ‘clearly’ they see it).

Quote of the day, especially the bolded.
 

Totenkindly

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Fe = subjective truth
Fi = objective truth (more around the TJ Fi's though)

Not only is this definition vague but it hasn't been properly framed so that we know what orientation by which to read it; for example, in MBTI speak, Fe is actually "objective" because it is an extroverted function and thus dealing with raw data, as opposited to an internal judging function that is deemed "subjective" because it is primarily focused on experiences of (in)congruence within the individual vs the external world.

I think Southern Kross's post right above yours explains the relationship between Fe and Fi much more clearly, exactly, and fairly.
 

chris1207

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You distinguish yourself from others and them from each other. Fi is the source of racism, especially when accompanied by Si. Fi is merely the social counterpart of Te and to an extent I wouldn't call it social as it really has nothing to do with the way you relate to people directly. I don't care that NFP's were the ones that propelled the civil rights movement. The fact is they had to get over their own racist tendencies, so they had a starting point. Fe is not predisposed to thinking that way.

Fe is the true voice of equality. It is a mechanism that promotes mutual cooperation. I'm not convinced that being an NFJ means you appeal to an externalized standard. Prove it.

Fe is only fake when it exists for it's own sake. I know that as an Ni user I'm not always good at articulating what I'm feeling. Jackasses, I'm sure, would love to take a cognitive shortcut, anything to cut apart whatever they find objectionable about my emotionality.

Without Fe, society would not exist period. I'd like to talk about Abraham Maslow and his hierarchy of needs. The fact is Fe is most developed function of them all in that system :), sitting on the third tier. Fi is there too, but only as a counterbalance to Te, with Si, which exists in the 2nd tier, which concerns itself with self preservation and safety. Ti and Se have their origins in the bottom tier, concerned with dynamism and sexuality. Not sure where to put the N's...
 

Southern Kross

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^ :huh:

I'm not sure if you're trolling or if you genuinely believe that nonsense...
 
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