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Thread: Fe Fakeness

  1. #531
    Glycerine
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    @PeaceBaby. I completely agree with your points about the J "I am right" mentality. At least from my experience, it gets a lot worse when there is stress involved because loose ends can feel like the devil when there was already set plans or the constructs that we have mulled over. It can be a big pain in the butt having to unravel the whole construct to incorporate new pieces of information if one's already tenatively figured it out.

  2. #532
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    I hope it's also clear that in some ways Je is more flexible than Ji, and that I'm not just ragging on Je in general While the scope of Ji's "I'm right" tends more towards the personal and/or specific, it can be very difficult to modify one it's fixed (with Fi being even harder to convince than Ti). I'm occasionally shocked at how Je folks can sound very certain about something, but then modify their opinion appropriately as new data or arguments come in. This seems especially true of EJs, who can state judgments as a kind of exploration of a topic rather than as the final say.

  3. #533
    Glycerine
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    I agree with you there actually. I would say Je is much slower to incorporate new information but when it finally opens up, it's all ears. Ji seems to be really open during the brainstorming stage but once they have made up their mind, it can be a difficult feat to convince them (or at least have them listen) of a different perspective. lol In this instance, I consider myself much more adaptable than the average P. lol I am not denying that I can be stubborn ass sometimes. lol This is usually my main source of contention between Fi users and I.... none of this collectivism vs. individualism crap.

  4. #534
    (blankpages) Xenon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I hope it's also clear that in some ways Je is more flexible than Ji, and that I'm not just ragging on Je in general While the scope of Ji's "I'm right" tends more towards the personal and/or specific, it can be very difficult to modify one it's fixed (with Fi being even harder to convince than Ti). I'm occasionally shocked at how Je folks can sound very certain about something, but then modify their opinion appropriately as new data or arguments come in. This seems especially true of EJs, who can state judgments as a kind of exploration of a topic rather than as the final say.
    Good posts. Yeah, I get taken by surprise by the bolded as well...I hear the certainty in an ExxJ's voice and I mistakenly assume they're in a similar place I'd have to be to speak with such certainty, when often they're nowhere near it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    Ji seems to be really open during the brainstorming stage but once they have made up their mind, it can be a difficult feat to convince them (or at least have them listen) of a different perspective.
    Yup, this is the impression I have of myself too. I think the fact that I do tend to take my time and explore an idea before reaching a conclusion makes me more likely to become irritated or dismissive when people argue against them. Especially when they trot out arguments I've already considered and picked apart and fully expect me to have never thought about them before, or when they otherwise seem to assume my thought process was far simpler than it really was. When I start to feel weirdly defensive in an argument for no obvious reason, it's most often related to this.

  5. #535
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Us Fi doms like to think there is a universal moral, value-based construct, though.
    Yah, but that's an interaction with Te. The mindset goes, "each person feels for himself, and while this leaves the world to be organised impersonally as if we are all strictly alone in our feelings, still, impersonally speaking, there will and must be commonalities--universals--present in each person, waiting to be discovered and--tada!--impersonally checked to determine their real existence." So it's not quite right to speak of Fi principles. There are certainly some universals that can be spoken of, but there's still an important gap between those universals and the people who instantiate them. There's a sense though in which that gap is logically required. The gap is an expression of the personalisation that drives the existence of the universal. If the value system were not personal--felt by the person, alone--then the value could never hope to attain universal applicability.

    OH MY GOD! OMGOMGOMG! THE Fe PEOPLE WORK IT IN REVERSE! THEY WORK FROM UNIVERSAL TO PERSONAL!
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  6. #536
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    I am genuinely curious but can you clarify that?
    Maybe. It's a thought something along the lines of this: where an Fe person is required to state the organisation of the world they work with, that organisation ceases to have substance. It, in effect, becomes mere Te and loses its reason to be.

    Extroverted Thinking, unlike introverted thinking, has really only one principle: "X, because the world is X." This allows, even forces, Te (as it appears in a person) to be about mechanism, development, construction... moving stuff of the world. Extroverted Feeling is perhaps the same. All feeling is stipulated. And the stipulations depend crucially upon the world as it is. Without the world being thus and so, feeling this or that is without meaning. So, in some sense, the one and only principle of Fe is "well, what's going on with YOU?"


    /temporary stipulation
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  7. #537
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Yah, but that's an interaction with Te. The mindset goes, "each person feels for himself, and while this leaves the world to be organised impersonally as if we are all strictly alone in our feelings, still, impersonally speaking, there will and must be commonalities--universals--present in each person, waiting to be discovered and--tada!--impersonally checked to determine their real existence." So it's not quite right to speak of Fi principles. There are certainly some universals that can be spoken of, but there's still an important gap between those universals and the people who instantiate them. There's a sense though in which that gap is logically required. The gap is an expression of the personalisation that drives the existence of the universal. If the value system were not personal--felt by the person, alone--then the value could never hope to attain universal applicability.

    OH MY GOD! OMGOMGOMG! THE Fe PEOPLE WORK IT IN REVERSE! THEY WORK FROM UNIVERSAL TO PERSONAL!
    @bold: Do you think this feels right for you because your Te filter is higher up in the food chain? Subjectively, I don't feel like you are describing how I experience this. It feels off for me.


    Extra question: Are you being sarcastic with your OMG pronouncement? Because, this is not something I think is a revelation for you personally.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #538
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    @bold: Do you think this feels right for you because your Te filter is higher up in the food chain? Subjectively, I don't feel like you are describing how I experience this. It feels off for me.
    I think Fi and Te can exist in isolation in the sense that at any given time a person can consciously interact with very probably literally only one of their, but not both of their, subject matters. But I think neither judgment system can exist without the other. The judgments of either one of the systems literally can not be formed if there is no content from the other system present. (And it doesn't need to be conscious content either. In fact, it probably won't be conscious content.)

    Extra question: Are you being sarcastic with your OMG pronouncement? Because, this is not something I think is a revelation for you personally.
    [ninja edit, no Se fail here, folks, move along]

    It's not sarcastic, mostly. It's a revelation. It's particularly revelatory because of this idea of "gap". Fi, so it would seem to me, requires the gap between the person and the universal for the universal to exist at all, but Fe works straight form the universal, and I guess requires a gap as well... IT REQUIRES A FAKENESS! That's stunning, in a way. It means that while Fe can provide--without effort!--what Fi seeks, a universal, still Fi will require that step away. And likewise, though Fi can provide personalisation of universal requirements, still Fe will require that step away from the purely individually "personal"....

    Thus, "OMG".
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  9. #539
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post

    Us Fi doms like to think there is a universal moral, value-based construct, though. Fi doms, please disagree if I am overstepping my purview here.
    Can you please explain exactly what you mean?

  10. #540
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    It means that while Fe can provide--without effort!--what Fi seeks, a universal, still Fi will require that step away. And likewise, though Fi can provide personalisation of universal requirements, still Fe will require that step away from the purely individually "personal"....
    How would you define this Fe universal? Do you see it as complete or partial?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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