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Thread: Fe Fakeness

  1. #411
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    That doesn't really suprise me, tbh.

    I think it's really the 7th and 8th functions that get ignored the most.

    And, in a lot of cases, the 5th and 6th functions are even more developed than the 3rd and 4th.

    Someone with all Fe and no Fi would seem to be someone with little to no spine (imo), and you don't seem to be that kind of person.

    Still, a natural Fe-user with well-developed Fi, and a natural Fi-user with well-developed Fe, will still prefer their natural function, imo.

  2. #412
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post

    Someone with all Fe and no Fi would seem to be someone with little to no spine (imo), and you don't seem to be that kind of person.
    Lord Fecesness thinks, you are a squarehead. When you ever come around to Europe tell me in person that I have no spine, do me that favor will ya
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #413
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I've actually only got a point or so difference between my Fe and Fi -- I have good use of both. So the Fe/Fi threads are always interesting to me. Some of the stuff further down the line, though, yeah, that can use some work. :-)
    FWIW, I don't concur with Z's notes about 5th and 6th, etc., functions. I used to think that I had both good Te and Ti, until I realized that I don't think like a Ti person at all. It's fairly easy for Ni+Te to appear to oneself as exactly what Ti defined to be, since one is an "introverted thinker". I think this is a problem inherent with conflating skill sets (i.e., "what you know how to do") with cognitive functions ("how you figure out what needs to be done"). I can do "Ti-like" things effortlessly, but I'm not "using Ti" to do them. I would suggest that Ni+Fe has the same ability to do "Fi-like" things, but that the INFJ approach is generally not going to resemble that of an IxFP, even if the skillset is similar.

    I suspect that the "5th and 6th" functions are associated with skillsets that come fairly easily for someone with one's 1st and 2nd functions. If one is an NT or NF, one's 5th and 6th functions are also "NT" or "NF", thus staying in the same Kiersey temperament, hence the strong similarities.

    So I'm not so much saying that you aren't "good at Fi", that you don't have that skill set, so much as it's an imprecise statement - that if you look carefully at an INFP doing the same thing, the underlying approach is remarkably different. It's a useful distinction to note, that can make it less likely for you to be surprised as to when and where differences arise.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

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  4. #414
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Some people won't, though, you know. Your post brought to mind an ENTJ I know who devised a perfect-on-paper system for organizing staff under his authority, and the only one who has been able to stay in the job is an INFJ (not me) who has walked off the job twice in frustration of trying to make something work that won't work because of the problems it creates in the people's interactions and ended up going to a doctor and having her antidepressants doubled and an anti-anxiety med added to the mix to be taken as needed, to keep her from standing up, putting her purse on her arm, and walking off at 3 pm. The ENTJ thinks it is because he just has not hired the right people for the mix. He can't see that certain factors in the reporting structure etc. cause problems with interaction, and you can't tell him that. I think, because I was put in the position of mentoring some of these people, that if he had a steady stream of someone gently, quietly pointing out, "See how this happens as a result of that?" "See this happening like this again?" that he can be led to see it. But if you said flat out, "Do you realize how these changes will effect your staff?" he would not react well at all. *edit to add - He thinks his plan is perfect, it's that the people are not doing it right. So he keeps losing and re-hiring staff.* This is where I get frustration with the anti-Fe team. Respecting someone's feelings works and you can adhere to your principles while still respecting people's feelings. Sometimes it's just not effective to say things in plain English. Sometimes the round about way ("manipulation") works better. And when it's like that and I'm doing the one leading someone to what I think is a necessary realization that I can't just say to them because they're built in a way that can't hear it, I let them think they came to the conclusion by themselves and am happy not to take credit, as long as the the goal of harmony for the group is reached. These seems to me like good Fe. Am I wrong?
    I agree the indirect approach to calling out mistakes or directing someone can often be more effective. It depends on the situation. Sometimes it is better to be direct. Sometimes with a Te dom, it is good to communicate back in the same style that they do. Doesn't always work though if they take it as an affront to their authority or you push for a different direction and the results end up not being there.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    FWIW, I don't concur with Z's notes about 5th and 6th, etc., functions. I used to think that I had both good Te and Ti, until I realized that I don't think like a Ti person at all. It's fairly easy for Ni+Te to appear to oneself as exactly what Ti defined to be, since one is an "introverted thinker". I think this is a problem inherent with conflating skill sets (i.e., "what you know how to do") with cognitive functions ("how you figure out what needs to be done"). I can do "Ti-like" things effortlessly, but I'm not "using Ti" to do them. I would suggest that Ni+Fe has the same ability to do "Fi-like" things, but that the INFJ approach is generally not going to resemble that of an IxFP, even if the skillset is similar.

    I suspect that the "5th and 6th" functions are associated with skillsets that come fairly easily for someone with one's 1st and 2nd functions. If one is an NT or NF, one's 5th and 6th functions are also "NT" or "NF", thus staying in the same Kiersey temperament, hence the strong similarities.

    So I'm not so much saying that you aren't "good at Fi", that you don't have that skill set, so much as it's an imprecise statement - that if you look carefully at an INFP doing the same thing, the underlying approach is remarkably different. It's a useful distinction to note, that can make it less likely for you to be surprised as to when and where differences arise.
    I agree with this, I don't think being diplomatic necessarily equates with usage of Fe. There is a lot of "learned behavior". It doesn't mean you think that way naturally.

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  5. #415
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Some people won't, though, you know.

    . . . The ENTJ thinks it is because he just has not hired the right people for the mix. He can't see that certain factors in the reporting structure etc. cause problems with interaction, and you can't tell him that. I think, because I was put in the position of mentoring some of these people, that if he had a steady stream of someone gently, quietly pointing out, "See how this happens as a result of that?" "See this happening like this again?" that he can be led to see it. But if you said flat out, "Do you realize how these changes will effect your staff?" he would not react well at all. *edit to add - He thinks his plan is perfect, it's that the people are not doing it right. So he keeps losing and re-hiring staff.* This is where I get frustration with the anti-Fe team. Respecting someone's feelings works and you can adhere to your principles while still respecting people's feelings. Sometimes it's just not effective to say things in plain English. Sometimes the round about way ("manipulation") works better. And when it's like that and I'm doing the one leading someone to what I think is a necessary realization that I can't just say to them because they're built in a way that can't hear it, I let them think they came to the conclusion by themselves and am happy not to take credit, as long as the the goal of harmony for the group is reached. These seems to me like good Fe. Am I wrong?
    No, you're just emphasizing Fe rather than Te or something else. Funny you should mention this. I sometimes implement the Te equivalent, showing a manager or necessary collaborator how he/she can benefit from my idea, and get the credit for it. I don't care, as long as what I want is implemented.

    You and Highlander are both right, of course, that different people respond better to different approaches. Choosing the best approach for a given person and being able to apply it, however, can be tricky. I can usually smell manipulation a mile away, which causes me to distrust and lose respect for the person doing it, making me less receptive to anything but verifiable facts. Anything involving nagging or repetition will be shut down quickly as well. Either make your case, or if you can't, go do some more homework and come back when you can.

    Also, just because I consider a direct Fe (or Fi) based argument, doesn't mean I will do what the person is advocating. I may accept that they have identified a problem I overlooked, but may then address the problem in a completely different way. Perhaps the ENTJ you describe thought he had already considered the issue of personal interaction, and addressed it in his own way. The best option in this case would be to accumulate direct evidence that his way is not working, and present it all together, as in : "You implemented system X. We have been using it for 3 months, and can now identify the following problems . . . " Yes, some people still won't face facts even when they are staring them in the face. I find it hard myself to know what to do then.
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  6. #416
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    @Ginkgo's evil plan worked.

  7. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Oh, yeah, I feel you on that one.

    But that's more of an enneagram 4 thing, isn't it?
    i would think so. ENFJ 3/4 friend of mine needs to vent about her suffering more than i do - she has a need for recognition, i think. probably doubly potent because she's a 3. generally i just want my damn situation fixed, i don't really want to talk about it. and i feel all flustered and exposed after talking about inner turmoil, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred
    I also fully expect that the other person will notice I'm forcing myself to be nice and at least give me credit for trying, rather than condemnation that I'm being fake.
    @bold: extremely well-said as an alternative POV to this thread, and worthy of consideration here.
    yeah interesting to hear how it works from another line of reasoning. put like this it sounds totally reasonable to me, i just can't really see myself thinking that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau
    The most annoying complaint I get from real life FJs (SFJs, mostly) is, "I shouldn't have to tell you ..." See, there's this hugely different attitude, where (from my INTJ perspective) FJs are very much focused on others and their emotional states, kind of "all up in their business" [...] and so when an INTJ doesn't react to all of their hints and nudges and cues, they get all huffy and insulted. If the INTJ "really loved" (or liked, in the case of friendships) them, then of course the INTJ would automatically pick up on these cues and carry them out.
    yeah i feel this too. it seems like a burden i never asked for. like the other person decides to throw expectations on me and then chides me when i don't meet them. and i'm like, wait, what? i didn't even want to interact with you in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone
    It added up to "You don't love/need/want me because you don't _________."
    this!! so confusing!! Fe users see these rules that i just do not see.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau
    This thread needs more cowbell.
    i was wondering how long it would take before someone said this.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander
    I agree with this, I don't think being diplomatic necessarily equates with usage of Fe. There is a lot of "learned behavior". It doesn't mean you think that way naturally.
    i agree with this too. i interact in and assist in organizing several large social groups, and they tend to be ExFJ-heavy. i can run parallel to them in many ways behavior-wise and interact smoothly but cognitive strategy is almost always quite different. it's like reading tilty's comment - i get it and could behave like that, but it's not native to me in any sense.

  8. #418
    Senior Member Mr. Cat's Avatar
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    So I read about Fe and it makes me imagine hypocritical people who talk behind anyone and everyone's back to anyone and everyone else but they are always smiling and happy.

  9. #419
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    It isnt because we "hate" Fe, more than Fe can hurt us without you guys realizing it. Because it hurts, we push back defensively.

    How it hurts? It hurts as each time I am told "you REALLY should feel THIS way", I feel initially pain that I did not feel THIS way, and that I have "saddened" someone I care for by not correctly having my values set to care for them in the way they needed, since my feelings are one with my self definition, then if my feelings are flawed, then I am flawed...thus I hurt. It is very ainful and I am filled with guilt...
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I wonder if it has something to do with wanting to be appreciated for who you are and rejecting the values or expectations to be different that someone else is imposing on you - regardless as to whether or not that imposition is subtle in its manifestation.
    I understand this now. I'm sorry you've had to go through that.

    I just don't do these sorts of things to others in my real life (but it's done to me sometimes and it really hurts so I truly do understand) so I'm unable to help in any way here. I guess my Fe is just different than that. The other problem is I'm just not well versed in typology stuff, in order to help. The INFJs are better versed in it than me, so I just let them handle it. But yeah, I guess I am a little sensitive, and it doesn't help that I'm never thinking about typology or the fact that blanket judgments happen.

  10. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    I understand this now. I'm sorry you've had to go through that.

    I just don't do these sorts of things to others in my real life (but it's done to me sometimes and it really hurts so I truly do understand) so I'm unable to help in any way here. I guess my Fe is just different than that. The other problem is I'm just not well versed in typology stuff, in order to help. The INFJs are better versed in it than me, so I just let them handle it. But yeah, I guess I am a little sensitive, and it doesn't help that I'm never thinking about typology or the fact that blanket judgments happen.
    To be honest, I wouldn't expect it to happen or be anywhere nearly as overt if or when it does happen, if the Fe-user is an ISFJ.

    I think you guys would be the least egregious when it comes to such things; you guys are calm and sensitive and sweet.

    EFJs, on the other hand, can be awful, especially ESFJs (from my experience).

    It reminds me of something hilarious I saw on facebook about a month ago:

    It was a picture with one-line descriptions of all 16 types, and you were supposed to tag your friends to their particular type.

    The ISFJs' description read: "The ISFJ really cares about how your day went."

    The ESFJs' description read: "The ESFJ really cares that you really care about how their day went."

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