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Thread: Fe Fakeness

  1. #381
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Oh, please. If they were made of colored glass or porcelain, you would probably find them lovely.
    @uumlau won the Ne moment; sadly, yours is an Ne "fail".

    Don't feel bad, better luck next time!

    Still though, as consolation, you have that nomination for "thread killer" so that could come through for you! Chin up!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #382
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post

    The most annoying complaint I get from real life FJs (SFJs, mostly) is, "I shouldn't have to tell you ..." See, there's this hugely different attitude, where (from my INTJ perspective) FJs are very much focused on others and their emotional states, kind of "all up in their business", which INTJs don't have, at all. So they project this "in your business" attitude onto INTJs, and so when an INTJ doesn't react to all of their hints and nudges and cues, they get all huffy and insulted. If the INTJ "really loved" (or liked, in the case of friendships) them, then of course the INTJ would automatically pick up on these cues and carry them out. I get the impression that FJs really dislike having to explain things in a declarative manner, and consider it to be a communication failure.

    Thus the primary thing that bothers me is not just that it's merely different values or expectations, but that they believe that there is something intrinsically wrong with me because my worldview is so totally different (NiTe vs SiFe). This came up a lot in my marriage counseling (ESFJ ex-wife, ESFJ counselor). My ex and I had very very similar values and expectations. The problems arose from the finer points, that she expected me to read her Fe signals on the fly and that I was expected to respond (not that she or the counselor phrased it that way, but it is what they both advocated). My inability to meet that particular meta-expectation is what led her to believe that I "didn't really love" her.
    As someone with inferior Fe, I got this a lot from my ex ESFJ. I didn't respond to things how he thought I should, I didn't think in ways he thought I should. He was even offended if I had a different opinion or POV. He literally thought there was something wrong with me since I was different.

    It added up to "You don't love/need/want me because you don't _________." The unfortunate thing is that he kept all of this inside while smiling in my face until it all exploded in the worst way. He didn't want to rock the boat or lose the benefits of being married so he pretended everything was fine. So yes, Fe can be used in a horribly fake manner and cause a whole lot of damage because it can block honest and open communication. Granted, this is extreme and I am talking about someone that is emotionally immature.

    Fe often feels like pressure, manipulation, and encroachment on my autonomy. It often triggers feelings of rage (well...after I've been poked enough to lose detachment) and an urge to protect myself.

    I recently started seeing an INFP and it is very different and very nice. Fi can be very difficult to understand but since it parallels Ti, it makes things easier to understand.

  3. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Oh, please. If they were made of colored glass or porcelain, you would probably find them lovely.
    Irrelevant, since they aren't.

  4. #384
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by senza_tema View Post
    Irrelevant, since they aren't.
    The funniest part of all is that ... cows don't have balls, only bulls do. An utter fail, on so many levels.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    The funniest part of all is that ... cows don't have balls, only bulls do. An utter fail, on so many levels.
    http://images.lmgtfy.com/?q=cow+testicles

  6. #386
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ no self-respecting farmer will say a COW has balls.

    A cow is the mature female of the bovine world, despite the usage so many of us casually defer to when referring to cattle.

    cow
    noun, plural cows, ( Archaic ) kine.
    1. the mature female of a bovine animal, especially of the genus Bos.
    2. the female of various other large animals, as the elephant or whale.
    3. Informal . a domestic bovine of either sex and any age.

    JUST BECAUSE #3 informally recognizes that SO MANY people are ignorant of the proper use of the word does not make it correct or accurate.

    Edit: It's kinda right up there with "Only bulls have horns".

    Calf: baby male or female
    Weaner: after weaning from cow up to about a year old
    Yearling: up to about age 2
    Heifer: young female not yet bred
    Cow: female anytime after first calving (sometimes second calf if you use the term ...)
    First-calf heifer
    Steer: castrated male to be fattened up for the destination of your freezer OR
    Ox: if you keep him around to pull stuff
    Bull: mature male, purpose breeding
    Cattle: collective term for the collective

    There's more but ... that'll do.

    Double Edit: Nico, if English isn't your mother tongue, my apologies and consider this a learning experience.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #387
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Yes, it appears that NFPs hear the signals, but the Fe signals don't map to the Fi signals. Fi sees those hints and nudges, but the communication breaks down due to "emotional crosstalk". For NTJs, we generally don't hear the signals unless they're enunciated clearly (i.e., using words instead of hints or nudges), at which point we interpret them as Te-style directives. Those directives often end up sounding like, "We need to do this my way or I'll get upset." (I'm not intending this to be disparaging, this is a description of translation failure.) The intended message is more along the lines of, "Wait, you haven't accounted for these human factors that will mess you up if you ignore them." The compromise ends up being a Te-style following of general social rules, which if adept enough, becomes what others have called "faux Fe." We don't understand the underlying motivations for the social rules (since we don't read Fe well), but we do understand that it's easier to deal with people who aren't upset with us, and it's good to accommodate others in this regard (within reason, of course ).

    I think it's more that the full translation from Fe to Te is rarely ever made.
    I think this is a very good explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post

    The most annoying complaint I get from real life FJs (SFJs, mostly) is, "I shouldn't have to tell you ..." See, there's this hugely different attitude, where (from my INTJ perspective) FJs are very much focused on others and their emotional states, kind of "all up in their business", which INTJs don't have, at all. So they project this "in your business" attitude onto INTJs, and so when an INTJ doesn't react to all of their hints and nudges and cues, they get all huffy and insulted. .... I get the impression that FJs really dislike having to explain things in a declarative manner, and consider it to be a communication failure.

    Thus the primary thing that bothers me is not just that it's merely different values or expectations, but that they believe that there is something intrinsically wrong with me because my worldview is so totally different (NiTe vs SiFe).
    Interesting. I have experienced the exact same things. It can be pretty frustrating. I don't know that it is just FJs that really dislike having to explain things in a declarative manner. I can think of one ISFP that I used to know and she was unable to do that as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    I didn't respond to things how he thought I should, I didn't think in ways he thought I should. He was even offended if I had a different opinion or POV. He literally thought there was something wrong with me since I was different.

    The unfortunate thing is that he kept all of this inside while smiling in my face until it all exploded in the worst way.
    Yep.

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  8. #388
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Regarding "faux Fe" - is there a corollary for Fe users having to engage or utilize "faux Te" ???
    Yes, I believe there is also a "faux Te", where it looks and sounds like Te, and you can't tell it isn't until you discover that the underlying reasoning is "off."

    Not to pick on my ESFJ ex, but her example is apt. She was actually pretty good with money. She'd keep track of every penny, meticulously keep her checkbook balanced, write out budgets and stick to them. She is a master of Excel. Looks and sounds really Te, right? Great money management skills, etc.

    Except:
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  9. #389
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I don't disagree with your generalizations, but I do with your conclusions. In part, it's because the context/universal is an Ne/Si vs Ni/Se conflict, not an Fi/Fe conflict. You aptly describe the NFP problems with NFJs, but not Fe vs Fi in general.
    I disagree. As I understand it, perception differences manifest mainly between preferring to understand a bit of data as the totality of what it appears to be, or as suggestive of something else. I don't think the NeTi preference, for example, believes that every conclusion is a universal one, if only because of painful awareness of how much we do not know, individually. This shows up in the constant desire to tinker or test one's theories or thoughts, and modify those, rather than rejecting the circumstances in favor of matching the logic. A Ti preference favors improvisation, while a Te preference favors preparation and planning so that one does not need to improvise. The perceiving function preference is between abstraction and concreteness, and I think we do ourselves a disservice by trying to extend it past that.

    The problem Fi has with Fe is that Fe violates the realm of the personal for Fi, just as Te violates the realm of the personal for Ti, that there is something deeply offensive about the Fe approach to matters, irrespective of the particular values. I see Ti types just as offended by my Te approach. Where Fi sees Fe as "fake", Ti sees Te as "condescending". Where Fi sees Fe as shallow or superficial, Ti sees Te as stupid or simplistic.
    I see how it may appear this way, but this is not how I understand it. Instead, one who prefers Fi cannot understand why someone who prefers Fe can have multiple reactions to the same thing, or the same reaction to seemingly opposing actions, depending on the social context. The latter person seems "fake" or inauthentic because of the shifts in behavior that arise from a preference to follow the contextual logic, rather than the maintenance of a universal principle.

    In the case of the person who prefers Ti, the one who prefers Te may seem condescending, but this is because of the dismissal of context that a strong preference for Te often tends toward. What that person may prefer to see as superfluous or irrelevant within the greater harmony, the other person might prefer to see as the critical contextual shift that demands a new logical approach.

    With respect to Te, the problem with Fe is not that it rejects relationships and subjective concepts, so much as it prioritizes logistical cooperation about objectively measurable things over the subjective concepts, which it regards as the realm of Fi. That is to say, no, you don't go needlessly stepping on others' feelings and values and rubbing their noses in their faults, but at the same time, you don't let those considerations stop you from enunciating the truth just because others place negative-value-connotations on the truth as you see it.
    "Preference" is the important term here. The one who prefers Te prefers the maintenance and defense of a universal truth over a social context. The one who prefers Fe prefers the opposite. It's not that the other is bad, it's just that it doesn't motivate the person.

    I reject the subjective/objective distinction, because every function preference is subjective. They all attempt to describe how a person, a subject, perceives and relates to the world. To me, the distinction in preference is between unity and universality (Te/Fi) on the one hand, relativity and context (Fe/Ti) on the other. At the same time, these factors are preferences, and not uniquely determinative of the final product of cognition.

    For Te, the priority is that an arrangement "works". For Fe, the priority is that an arrangement is "fair." To Fe, "fair" is equivalent to "what works", since developing a common definition of fairness is how one gets people to work together. To Te, it isn't enough that people work together or believe that a system is fair, but it also actually has to "work" in a practical sense. The truth is likely somewhere in the middle, where there is both a requirement that a system work both in a practical sense and that the participants believe that it is a fair system. If it isn't fair in the eyes of the participants, it won't work because the participants won't let it work. If it can't work in a practical sense, it doesn't matter how fair everyone regards it, because it won't work (either it won't work at all from the get-go or it will necessarily fail in the long run as it depletes the resources necessary for its continuation).
    Functionality, in and of itself, is a universal standard. Those preferring Fe don't necessarily care about fairness as much as they do not rocking the boat, whereby disrupting the cohesion that the group has. A lack of functionality, after all, can perpetuate group stability and cohesion, and even enhance prosperity, while the actual production of results can obliterate that.

  10. #390
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I disagree. As I understand it, perception differences manifest mainly between preferring to understand a bit of data as the totality of what it appears to be, or as suggestive of something else. I don't think the NeTi preference, for example, believes that every conclusion is a universal one, if only because of painful awareness of how much we do not know, individually. ...
    This is because Ni/Se doesn't care whether a conclusion is universal, but Ne/Si does.

    I see how it may appear this way, but this is not how I understand it. Instead, one who prefers Fi cannot understand why someone who prefers Fe can have multiple reactions to the same thing, or the same reaction to seemingly opposing actions, depending on the social context. The latter person seems "fake" or inauthentic because of the shifts in behavior that arise from a preference to follow the contextual logic, rather than the maintenance of a universal principle.
    xSFJs will classify an NFP as being weird, and put them in the weird box. Interestingly, NFPs don't seem to mind this.

    xNFJs will tend to imply that the NFP is "feeling wrong," which actually annoys NFPs a lot.

    In the case of the person who prefers Ti, the one who prefers Te may seem condescending, but this is because of the dismissal of context that a strong preference for Te often tends toward. What that person may prefer to see as superfluous or irrelevant within the greater harmony, the other person might prefer to see as the critical contextual shift that demands a new logical approach.
    Context is Ni/Se. You're conflating Te with NTJs, just as you're conflating Fe with NFJs. It plays out differently for STJs and SFJs.

    "Preference" is the important term here. The one who prefers Te prefers the maintenance and defense of a universal truth over a social context.
    As a Te-aux, I must disagree. There is no "universal truth." You're talking about Te in Ne/Ti terms, here.

    The one who prefers Fe prefers the opposite. It's not that the other is bad, it's just that it doesn't motivate the person.
    More conflations. This is getting confusing.

    I reject the subjective/objective distinction, because every function preference is subjective. ...
    This is a nihilistic viewpoint that removes any common ground for discussion. Jung was very clear about his definitions of objective and subjective. They are orientations or attitudes, not Platonic ideals.

    Functionality, in and of itself, is a universal standard.
    No, it isn't. People have different ideas of what is functional. Different use cases, if you will.

    Those preferring Fe don't necessarily care about fairness as much as they do not rocking the boat, whereby disrupting the cohesion that the group has. A lack of functionality, after all, can perpetuate group stability and cohesion, and even enhance prosperity, while the actual production of results can obliterate that.
    I'm not sure what you're getting at, and certainly not how this follows from functionality somehow being a universal standard.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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