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Thread: Fe Fakeness

  1. #351
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    I identified very strongly with Orobas' post about the effect of strong Fe. Not so much now, but I was often confused by unspoken Fe "rules" and unspoken requests. Still am if I'm perfectly honest, but it has less emotional impact on me these days. I no longer scratch my head in social interactions when Fe-users expect some sort of signal. If they get upset, balls in their court, to either ask me, or open communication. It's very amusing at work, at times. I find that the Fi-users read me like a book down to the small nuances, and the Fe users get it wrong often. It's like I send the wrong signals out or some thing to Fe users. No matter how hard I try to send the right ones. Sigh.
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  2. #352
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    But-as I asked highlander-is there something subconscious that preceeds the frustration? I dunno, just poking at the pattern.
    I wonder if it has something to do with wanting to be appreciated for who you are and rejecting the values or expectations to be different that someone else is imposing on you - regardless as to whether or not that imposition is subtle in its manifestation.

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  3. #353
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    You know there is some truth to this. It doesn't bother me like it does you Orobas but it still can and does. I can feel unappreciated, get annoyed, sometimes angry and yes defensive. It's criticizing me somehow as to who I am at my core. My reaction might be for example, "I'm happy to consider whatever views and opinions you have. Really I am. But NO. I really should NOT FEEL THAT WAY. Be free to feel whatever way you want though."

    Of course Fi is not as high up the stack for me and so I might be more immune.
    Yes, nice post that shows the Te armor-effect well. Te is a natural Fe inoculant - the elevation of it in the "stack" means you have already processed through the "This is / I am right" filter before you get to Fi. Without Te or Fe in the dom or aux position, one does not naturally possess the ability to readily fend off a Te or an Fe agenda.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    What I'm mostly aware of around "obvious" Fe types is competition for organisational control.
    Yes, that's well said.

    As an INFP, I am always fascinated to watch the Te / Fe dynamic in doms & aux's. Both circle 'round, recognize each as power players, and even though each may not agree with or understand the motives of the other, both recognize the alpha-type positioning they are negotiating or navigating towards attaining. lol as an Fi dom, I have to use a raft of strategies if I want my agenda to become the executable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Te imitating Fe. Gotta choose your battles. Sometimes what they're saying even kinda makes sense. Who'da thunk? :P
    I think it kind of makes sense because you at least recognize the familiar aspects of the function. So even if the conclusions don't make sense to you, the process still does - that there's an equation that runs through some alternate variables to come up with a different answer, but you still recognize there's an equation. It enables you to give Fe berth until it violates an Fi core value you have awareness of or sensitivity towards.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    ...you always must be aware of how you are acting and how it will come off to others and you are always aware of how others are acting and how that changes things for you.
    This is where sometimes I think there's a muddiness between typology and enneagram. For me, despite being Fi dom, I am also so dom, so I do feel aware of this stuff, even if I don't always "get" the Fe-ers POV. But I feel the ripple effect, I know what I say and do impacts others and I can watch it play through, watch others trying to play through too. One big difference I think though is that I use data to try to convince others, not emotion. Not like an Fe dom or aux esp does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    There is nothing like 4 or 5 EXXJs vying for power... just shoot me now... it's quite a spectacle. LOL
    lol indeed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Now, whether it's accurate to say that Fi people don't put on a face ever or at all: I wouldn't say that.
    No, we do put on faces. It would be more about sins of omission perhaps? I don't tell everything, don't reveal everything.

    Plus, I DO put on a sweet face when I feel sour and there are times I know what people are expecting to hear and so give it to them. Does that mean I am literally, fake? By my personal definitions, yes it does.

    But there are times when the social grease makes life easier rather than harder; I just wish it didn't make me feel so scripted to employ it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I'll probably have to eat these words, but to some degree Fe face is less troublesome than Fi hype.
    Oh I agree it is. As an Fi dom, I certainly know how troublesome it can be to others. Fi must be organized in every way to be effective in the world.

    For example, as an agent of change - if I decide to enter the fray, I will have all my data ready to convince the Te types, and all the social benefits / people logistical information ready for the Fe types - for other types, I will have already mentally designated areas needing detail oriented task work or imaginative creative brainstorming and will be ready to engage those people as well. In order to deploy an Fi agenda, it is not enough to say "This is wrong, change needs to happen." One must carefully navigate all the players to a successful conclusion. Lots of work. Took me time to learn this.

    What I get mostly from Fe is a sense of a person driving toward something. They seem driven. And they wish to drive me too, but I don't share the priorities so I "feel" no particular pressure to accommodate.
    As above, you have Te that seems to inoculate you against overt pressure from the Fe perspective. You can see they are driving towards something, but you don't share the goal, so it is easier to brush off, mostly because you know MOL where you stand already, even if not on a topic by topic basis, from a core fundamental aspect of your cognitive bias.

    It's different if they have actual authority over my position or they have opportunity to introduce their priorities into my organisation, but different in the sense that I expect they will make a large mess where I would otherwise have had something workable. Even then it's unlikely I'll attend to their priorities, even if I could. The priority at such times is the removal of their influence.
    Your Te recognizes and even respects their authority, and it's natural for you to defer to that, unless it makes no sense at all. I suspect if you, as an INTJ, were faced with an intelligent, strategic Fe dom or aux, you would have a battle on your hands to "remove their influence" though. Would call for a long term strategy. Dangerous too, unless you have authority and power in your own right. Fe folks are smarter with people, hands-down.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The problem Fi has with Fe is that Fe violates the realm of the personal for Fi, just as Te violates the realm of the personal for Ti, that there is something deeply offensive about the Fe approach to matters, irrespective of the particular values. I see Ti types just as offended by my Te approach. Where Fi sees Fe as "fake", Ti sees Te as "condescending". Where Fi sees Fe as shallow or superficial, Ti sees Te as stupid or simplistic.
    Yes, I liked this post (shortened for brevity's sake.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I have often chatted with U about this-I envy the INTJ ability to not be emotionally invaded by the Fe nudges to the same extent that NFPs can be.
    Indeed. Yep.

    However both sides are too busy feeling emo-offended and defensive to address the communication failing...such is the world.
    I'm not sure I agree with this though ... I have been in the ring, I will stick with each round, but I feel as an Fi - Te user, if you're not careful, the Fe - Ti user will leave the ring and it's over. I may need time to re-group, but I will re-enter the ring. You hit too hard on the Fe - Ti person, and there's no way they will re-engage, work it through to win-win. I don't know exactly what to say about that, except that it just IS. But I feel pretty sad about that being the way it is.

    Are you projecting your own Te onto their Fe? Then they just look like whiny, somehwat illogical TJs?
    I think it's that recognition of the process - I feel it with INTP's, maybe you feel it with ENTP's - there's a familiarity to the way the processes work? A sense of simpatico?

    Anecdotally, when my hubs (Te dom) talks about Fe doms, it's always with a mix of admiration and annoyance - admiration because he sees them work towards their goals and how they go after them with savvy, annoyance more to the fact they are playing the room rather than the ideas.
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  4. #354
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I am going to cross-pollinate this thread with a quote from the current "INFJ From the Perspectives of Other Types" thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    It's true for me that I'm nice even if I don't feel like it because I can't live with myself if I'm not. It's not being nice because I think other people expect me to be nice. It's being nice because I'll torture myself later if I'm not. I also fully expect that the other person will notice I'm forcing myself to be nice and at least give me credit for trying, rather than condemnation that I'm being fake.
    @bold: extremely well-said as an alternative POV to this thread, and worthy of consideration here.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #355
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I am going to cross-pollinate this thread with a quote from the "INFJ From the Perspectives of Other Types" thread:



    @bold: extremely well-said as an alternative POV to this thread, and worthy of consideration here.
    Oh my! Well said, yes. But what a very different point of view! In my perspective, the goal of an interaction is not niceness, especially if people can tell that it's not true. The goal of an interaction is honest communication, to show what you're trying to convey. Adding friendliness for the sake of friendliness is so foreign to me.
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  6. #356
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrystalViolet View Post
    I identified very strongly with Orobas' post about the effect of strong Fe. Not so much now, but I was often confused by unspoken Fe "rules" and unspoken requests. Still am if I'm perfectly honest, but it has less emotional impact on me these days. I no longer scratch my head in social interactions when Fe-users expect some sort of signal. If they get upset, balls in their court, to either ask me, or open communication. It's very amusing at work, at times. I find that the Fi-users read me like a book down to the small nuances, and the Fe users get it wrong often. It's like I send the wrong signals out or some thing to Fe users. No matter how hard I try to send the right ones. Sigh.
    Yes, it appears that NFPs hear the signals, but the Fe signals don't map to the Fi signals. Fi sees those hints and nudges, but the communication breaks down due to "emotional crosstalk". For NTJs, we generally don't hear the signals unless they're enunciated clearly (i.e., using words instead of hints or nudges), at which point we interpret them as Te-style directives. Those directives often end up sounding like, "We need to do this my way or I'll get upset." (I'm not intending this to be disparaging, this is a description of translation failure.) The intended message is more along the lines of, "Wait, you haven't accounted for these human factors that will mess you up if you ignore them." The compromise ends up being a Te-style following of general social rules, which if adept enough, becomes what others have called "faux Fe." We don't understand the underlying motivations for the social rules (since we don't read Fe well), but we do understand that it's easier to deal with people who aren't upset with us, and it's good to accommodate others in this regard (within reason, of course ).


    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I wonder if it has something to do with wanting to be appreciated for who you are and rejecting the values or expectations to be different that someone else is imposing on you - regardless as to whether or not that imposition is subtle in its manifestation.
    I think it's more that the full translation from Fe to Te is rarely ever made.

    The most annoying complaint I get from real life FJs (SFJs, mostly) is, "I shouldn't have to tell you ..." See, there's this hugely different attitude, where (from my INTJ perspective) FJs are very much focused on others and their emotional states, kind of "all up in their business", which INTJs don't have, at all. So they project this "in your business" attitude onto INTJs, and so when an INTJ doesn't react to all of their hints and nudges and cues, they get all huffy and insulted. If the INTJ "really loved" (or liked, in the case of friendships) them, then of course the INTJ would automatically pick up on these cues and carry them out. I get the impression that FJs really dislike having to explain things in a declarative manner, and consider it to be a communication failure.

    Thus the primary thing that bothers me is not just that it's merely different values or expectations, but that they believe that there is something intrinsically wrong with me because my worldview is so totally different (NiTe vs SiFe). This came up a lot in my marriage counseling (ESFJ ex-wife, ESFJ counselor). My ex and I had very very similar values and expectations. The problems arose from the finer points, that she expected me to read her Fe signals on the fly and that I was expected to respond (not that she or the counselor phrased it that way, but it is what they both advocated). My inability to meet that particular meta-expectation is what led her to believe that I "didn't really love" her.

    With Oro, it is quite refreshingly different. There is no expectation that I know how she really feels about something unless she tells me, and she's quite happy to tell me - none of this "I shouldn't have to tell you ..."
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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    Am I the only person who, when he reads these things, is like, "Yeah, I totally know what you mean about interacting with that type!", but, despite coming to a better understanding of the intertype relation, still gets extremely flustered and annoyed by it?

    Sometimes it feels like, even though I gain new knowledge, it doesn't actually lessen the frustration (at least not that much).

    I suppose, when the situation is important enough, I will still be able to use the understanding to make things better than I otherwise would. But, for the day to day shit, recognizing that other people (of my type, usually) share the same frustrations with dealing with other types doesn't necessarily make that frustration decrease. Hearing the same frustration recognized by others (once again, usually of my type) often seems to affirm what I'm feeling, and that affirmation is able to give me a concept to explain the phenomenon, cuz now I know it's not just an isolated incident with me and this type, but likely a more general phenomenon between this type and my type, or this type and certain other types, but, still, just having that conceptual understanding does not seem enough to necessarily mitigate my frustration, or give me an easy answer to fix the situation.

    Those people are who they are, and I'm not gunna be able to explain typology and the typological reasons for our disconnect/misunderstanding to every single frickin person I interact with, let alone people who I interact with regularly but who are not well disposed to this kind of thinking.

    Being as such, sometimes a new frustration forms whereby, now I'm not just frustrated because of the primary interaction itself, but now I'm frustrated cuz I see what's happening but explaining it to that person is really not a viable option.

    I dunno, just needed to get that out there.


  8. #358
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I get the impression that FJs really dislike having to explain things in a declarative manner, and consider it to be a communication failure.
    I find that so ironic.

    As a woman though, I can occasionally be guilty of the, "Do I really have to tell you this?" mentality ... haha, that reminds me of a story ~15 years ago my hubs went on a business trip to Switzerland for 3 weeks and the gift he brought me back was a little cowbell. I didn't want to be disappointed with the gift, but - a cowbell? I had to really think about WHY he got it, it's a traditional Swiss milkmaid thing, and I grew up on a dairy farm - but, A COWBELL? He was away while I was working nights p/t and taking care of the kids and was recuperating from pneumonia and he GOT ME A COWBELL? Oh silly husband! But it was well-thought out why he chose it, I'll grant him that!




    Regarding "faux Fe" - is there a corollary for Fe users having to engage or utilize "faux Te" ???
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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    Dude, that seems like an awesome gift if you ask me...

    It's hilarious, absurd, and has a connection to your childhood.

    What more could you ask for?

    Something inane and typical: like chocolate? or a collection of ornamental plates?

  10. #360
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Dude, that seems like an awesome gift if you ask me...

    It's hilarious, absurd, and has a connection to your childhood.

    What more could you ask for?
    I know, it's really great, isn't it? Especially in hindsight.

    But, at the time, I was thinking jewelry, man - jewelry! I can't wear a cowbell :/

    From a further context POV, the last jewelry he'd bought for me was my engagement ring, so ... hey, I'm not trying to be pushy, but a little trinket seemed more in line with my thinking at the time.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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