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Thread: Fe Fakeness

  1. #341
    ThatGirl
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    I am probably posting off topic since there are already over three hundred posts, but....

    In my experience Fe users tend to be the greatest advocates of sincerity. I always imagined this was because they feared being taken advantage of. They become adamant about not being "fake", or having to deal with the "fakeness" of others.

  2. #342
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I think the reason Fi people often describe it as fake is because we feel like we can just trust Fi people more: that they're not just putting on a face.
    I'll probably have to eat these words, but to some degree Fe face is less troublesome than Fi hype. What I get mostly from Fe is a sense of a person driving toward something. They seem driven. And they wish to drive me too, but I don't share the priorities so I "feel" no particular pressure to accommodate. It's different if they have actual authority over my position or they have opportunity to introduce their priorities into my organisation, but different in the sense that I expect they will make a large mess where I would otherwise have had something workable. Even then it's unlikely I'll attend to their priorities, even if I could. The priority at such times is the removal of their influence.

    But when Fi people get going on their need to be heard or the pain and suffering that must be listened to... it can be a trial.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  3. #343
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    If the Fi preference rejects anything about the Fe preference, it is the idea that things can or should be valued based on their context. Instead, things do have universal value that does not waver, regardless of circumstance. The Te preference would, in regard to that which appeals to the Fe preference, reject the idea that relationships and subjective context represent what is fundamentally important about our existence, maintaining that instead, these are mere aspects of the fundamentally greater logic and coherency that exists all throughout the universe, both within our existence and absent from it.

    You may, of course, disagree.
    I don't disagree with your generalizations, but I do with your conclusions. In part, it's because the context/universal is an Ne/Si vs Ni/Se conflict, not an Fi/Fe conflict. You aptly describe the NFP problems with NFJs, but not Fe vs Fi in general.

    The problem Fi has with Fe is that Fe violates the realm of the personal for Fi, just as Te violates the realm of the personal for Ti, that there is something deeply offensive about the Fe approach to matters, irrespective of the particular values. I see Ti types just as offended by my Te approach. Where Fi sees Fe as "fake", Ti sees Te as "condescending". Where Fi sees Fe as shallow or superficial, Ti sees Te as stupid or simplistic.

    With respect to Te, the problem with Fe is not that it rejects relationships and subjective concepts, so much as it prioritizes logistical cooperation about objectively measurable things over the subjective concepts, which it regards as the realm of Fi. That is to say, no, you don't go needlessly stepping on others' feelings and values and rubbing their noses in their faults, but at the same time, you don't let those considerations stop you from enunciating the truth just because others place negative-value-connotations on the truth as you see it.

    For Te, the priority is that an arrangement "works". For Fe, the priority is that an arrangement is "fair." To Fe, "fair" is equivalent to "what works", since developing a common definition of fairness is how one gets people to work together. To Te, it isn't enough that people work together or believe that a system is fair, but it also actually has to "work" in a practical sense. The truth is likely somewhere in the middle, where there is both a requirement that a system work both in a practical sense and that the participants believe that it is a fair system. If it isn't fair in the eyes of the participants, it won't work because the participants won't let it work. If it can't work in a practical sense, it doesn't matter how fair everyone regards it, because it won't work (either it won't work at all from the get-go or it will necessarily fail in the long run as it depletes the resources necessary for its continuation).
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  4. #344
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    Hahaha no, not at all. Those are funny though. I don't take threads like that seriously (at least not anymore), and I've never had any complaints in real life. I just came into the thread to make the comment above to help Glycerine.



    I wonder what you would have been like if you were free and not having to hold anything in.
    I think it balanced me out for the better. I know another EXFJ (I really think ESFJ) who was adopted and a few other hardships who is an emotionally volatile mess and it's not pretty. I chose to contain it as a self-protective measure and I think I am socially better off than she is (people don't really like her).

  5. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    The priority at such times is the removal of their influence.
    :yim_rolling_on_the_

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    But when Fi people get going on their need to be heard or the pain and suffering that must be listened to... it can be a trial.
    Oh, yeah, I feel you on that one.

    But that's more of an enneagram 4 thing, isn't it?

    *awaits comment about the "Banning, Boredom and Thuggery" thread from Jag*

  6. #346
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    I am probably posting off topic since there are already over three hundred posts, but....

    In my experience Fe users tend to be the greatest advocates of sincerity. I always imagined this was because they feared being taken advantage of. They become adamant about not being "fake", or having to deal with the "fakeness" of others.
    In essence, is that fake?

  7. #347
    ThatGirl
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    In essence, is that fake?
    Depends on how strongly they feel about it.

  8. #348
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    When I see this, I often wonder to what extent they're projecting...

    And to what extent the little rules and games that go on inside their heads are turning around and biting them in the ass...

  9. #349
    Glycerine
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    Life is a game. Even though I found him to be very irritating, Chris McCandless was one of the few people who didn't play into the "game".

  10. #350
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    You know there is some truth to this. It doesn't bother me like it does you Orobas but it still can and does. I can feel unappreciated, get annoyed, sometimes angry and yes defensive. It's criticizing me somehow as to who I am at my core. My reaction might be for example, "I'm happy to consider whatever views and opinions you have. Really I am. But NO. I really should NOT FEEL THAT WAY. Be free to feel whatever way you want though."

    Of course Fi is not as high up the stack for me and so I might be more immune.
    I have often chatted with U about this-I envy the INTJ ability to not be emotionally invaded by the Fe nudges to the same extent that NFPs can be. I dont wonder around in a Fe induced suicidal depression, LOL, but when young, I would definetely get this sense of sadness, a sense of faliure, but at something failing I could never precisely define. Since I do not have an underlying Ti framework, the Fe feeling just makes me feel bad with no way to resolve the issue.

    The solution to that feeling was just to avoid the person who induced it in me, because I cant block that stuff very well.

    It sounds as though Glycerine is describing a symmetric effect of unhappiness and subsequent withdraw from interactions that the Fe users feel when their attempts to build and maintain relationships are denied-perhaps by people like myself who just walk away.

    It is an unfortuanate two way street of misunderstanding which results in the frustration seen in the thread Vasalisa linked to-which describes a desire to be allowed to just be.

    However both sides are too busy feeling emo-offended and defensive to address the communication failing...such is the world.

    ************************************************** ******************************************

    Now-I once recall an INTJ friend noting-"This hurts when this other person does this but Te wont allow me to feel the pain, and instead the external response is Te-ish frustration...".

    Could this be an almost subconsious precursor to the frustration yourself and the other INTJs are describing? An unconscious Fi response?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I actually don't know what the fakeness criticism is, really. What I'm mostly aware of around "obvious" Fe types is competition for organisational control. They have priorities I just don't get but to my sense of things their priorities are genuinely theirs. My experience of SFJs range from the horrible to the merely exhausting. NFJs are easier to get along with even though agreement never happens. TPs, particularly ETPs, can come off as trying to screw with me on purpose, which is unsettling, but they need me to react first usually. But to me they all look quite clearly like they're attempting to manage the external world and they have some set of real priorities to that management. At least on my own level I understand that this kind of approach to the world is real and derives from real impulses.
    Are you projecting your own Te onto their Fe? Then they just look like whiny, somehwat illogical TJs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Yeah, this is much closer to how I feel.

    I'm not at all like, Oro, really -- aside from being bothered by it.

    My reaction is something like, "What the fuck are you talking about? Don't tell me how to feel. Fine, you feel that way. That's your prerogative. But there ain't nothing objective about it, and I sure as shit don't need to feel that way." Then, if they keep pressing the issue, I give kind of a, "Back the fuck off, cuz I already think you're being an idiot, and I'm holding this fact back in order to keep things civil, but if you keep pressing me on this, I may very well let you know how I feel."

    Of course, I suppose there are other times where I just pretend like I agree in order to keep things running smoothly.

    Te imitating Fe. Gotta choose your battles. Sometimes what they're saying even kinda makes sense. Who'da thunk? :P
    But-as I asked highlander-is there something subconscious that preceeds the frustration? I dunno, just poking at the pattern.

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