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Thread: Fe Fakeness

  1. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    I know its not the whole story, writing the whole story would take so long time that i cba to do that. but this is something that explains subjective factor of Te and no matter how many positives on being objective you find, it doesent remove this very large factor in being subjective.
    And no matter how much you want to harp on this subjective factor, it does not remove the plentiful and significant objective factors.

  2. #312
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    so-o-o-o...

    we have Ti users in a tizzy about Te objectivity. This has revealed the presence of a value, "objectivity". Interestingly, I think we might even be able to say how "true" comes to exist now. It's this "objectivity". Objectivity is the exclusion of external feeling compromises from decision-making cognition. Worked to it's fullest extreme, whatever is marked by this objectivity can also be called "true". Strangely, the Ti people are (or were) pointing at Fi as a containment in a Te judgment system, mostly because it's semi-conscious and directs "truth" judgments by introducing a subjective, divisive, personal focus into decisioneering. And I say "strangely" because though Fi should be a nightmarish problem for Ti, it's the practice of Te that's really making the waves. It functions just as Fe does, taking world cues and making stipulations. It, like Fe, is all over the place, slatternly blessing this or that situation with a truth value if it takes a fancy. Ti types seem to think this wanton splattering of the world with "truth" is a result of subjective choices when what subjective choices are more likely to urge is caution in the areas we care about. If "true" actually is valued, or more exactly if the truth process actually is valued, then when we care about something, we'll move to a heightened awareness of when and where we're performing adequately. If it's important that we be part of some situation, it'll be important that we get our involvement right...

    That's to say, [big leap] there is some conceptual connection between Te and Fi. Both are judgment systems, but neither can function without the other. In simple terms (because I haven't discovered the complex terms yet), you can't care about mapping the external world unless you care about something at all. It's something about not being able to develop a truth without first caring about truth per se, and something about not being able to conclude what's right and wrong for yourself without first wanting to know what's real in the world.

    So how does it work for Ti and Fe?

    You can't care for things of the external world unless you think? To feel in accordance with external world cues never happens unless somewhere you are able to judge categorical differences without reference to emotion?

    Note: these are conceptual connections, not conscious processes. The idea is Fe evaluations will never exist unless held within their judgment is some reference to basic distinctions between terminological categories... or whatever the hell it is Ti does at its core.

    And why? Because Fe, like Te, is a judgment that reflects the world. Without an i aspect present to influence decision, in fact to create decision, then these judgments would be little more than daily records of what was seen for at least as long as we can remember it.


    There is some more thought to do on this scheme and it may perhaps not have been done yet elsewhere. It's perhaps some attempt to explicate not just that but also how rejected consciousness is present unconsciously in preferred consciousness. Consider yourself blessed to be part of a work in progress.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  3. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    And no matter how much you want to harp on this subjective factor, it does not remove the plentiful and significant objective factors.
    There is a striving towards objectivity in Te, but in order to be objective, you need all info and totally dropping all factors causing subjectivity, and sorry honey, but thats simply not going to happen, ever, in any situation.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  4. #314
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    Are we gonna have to drag Si into this? The deep distrust of unexpected interpretations is not serving you well today. The objective you speak of only requires that level of effort if its measure is the removal of worldly influence. If worldly stamp is allowed, objectivity is a one-step process. But since the impulse is to remove worldly influence, indeed all worldly influence and not just the particular worldly influence that creates this particular value... etc and so on this is taking a long time.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Are we gonna have to drag Si into this? The deep distrust of unexpected interpretations is not serving you well today. The objective you speak of only requires that level of effort if its measure is the removal of worldly influence. If worldly stamp is allowed, objectivity is a one-step process. But since the impulse is to remove worldly influence, indeed all worldly influence and not just the particular worldly influence that creates this particular value... etc and so on this is taking a long time.
    I dont think we do, but you are welcome to do so if you want. but then imo its also important to talk about inferior Se, which can lead to projections(interpreting what is seen in very biased way) and about how E functions come from inside, not outside, even tho they are seen outside, and how this "outside' is actually inside of your head on your occipital lobe and other brain areas processing the visual information.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  6. #316
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    What's taking a long time is the Fe/Ti users admission that "objectivity" is a subjective value, that it's a value that applies only to a certain range of human activities, and that worship of this value undermines your ability to see merit in other systems.

    IT'S SUPPOSED TO WORK THAT WAY! A VALUE IS NOT A VALUE IF YOU DON'T RANK IT HIGHER THAN ALTERNATIVES. But this missionary zeal is bringing the smallpox with it.



    ETA: Hmmm.... I wonder if that'll backfire. It opens the door for the haterz to make similar claims about Fi. Which is a bad thing?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  7. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    What's taking a long time is the Fe/Ti users admission that "objectivity" is a subjective value, that it's a value that applies only to a certain range of human activities, and that worship of this value undermines your ability to see merit in other systems.

    IT'S SUPPOSED TO WORK THAT WAY! A VALUE IS NOT A VALUE IF YOU DON'T RANK IT HIGHER THAN ALTERNATIVES. But this missionary zeal is bringing the smallpox with it.



    ETA: Hmmm.... I wonder if that'll backfire. It opens the door for the haterz to make similar claims about Fi. Which is a bad thing?
    But the deal is that its not objective if its subjective..

    Like i already said at the beginning that objectivity is just an illusion of ones own subjective view on something being rationalized, thus it just looks objective, but is just an illusion.

    You Te people are the ones who need time to get this. objectivity is not just the highest value, its subjective to value one ovdr another. Objectivity is when there is no value over anything, but just what is. your interpration of what is, is subjective, even tho if it happens to match the objective reality. you are being subjective when you choose one over another, with true objectivity there is all, so no need to choose one over another because it has more value.

    Even if you take your perception of your computer screen, its not the computer screen you perceive, but a subjective visual representation of the computer screen on your visual cortex.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  8. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    But the deal is that its not objective if its subjective..

    Like i already said at the beginning that objectivity is just an illusion of ones own subjective view on something being rationalized, thus it just looks objective, but is just an illusion.

    You Te people are the ones who need time to get this. objectivity is not just the highest value, its subjective to value one ovdr another. Objectivity is when there is no value over anything, but just what is. your interpration of what is, is subjective, even tho if it happens to match the objective reality. you are being subjective when you choose one over another, with true objectivity there is all, so no need to choose one over another because it has more value.
    You're doing it again.


    Plus, the counter argument is, literally, about 2000 years old.

    Objectivity is an illusion.
    No such claim can be taken to be objective.
    Let's move on.



    Why not just admit that the paradox you drive yourself with is productive. It actually forces you to constantly seek a perfection in reasoning that along the way, this thread notwithstanding, leads you to create splendid demonstrations of validity. You desire a perfection that cannot be reached without excising all contingent content from your experience of the world, and this, while being an impressive null to aim for, creates an ability to [blah blah blah whatever INTPs are good for] Fe.

    And why would anyone seek a particular perfection if it were not valued?



    ETA: the irony being of course, that such an admission probably seems to diminish the potency of the value. If the seeking is acknowledged to be the seeking of a value, it can be relaxed because values are merely chosen things, not actually real... and lo, there goes rigour, right out the window to splash around in all the puddles of love.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  9. #319
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    Game. Set. Match.

    To summarize: in order to best accomplish what we value, we can't outright deny the possibility that what we aim for is actually possible.

    So, INTP, if you won't deny the possibility that we might be able to read the situation in the world well enough to apply the correct solution, we won't deny the possibility that you might be able to read the image in your mind well enough to create an accurate rationalist model of the universe.

    Deal?

    And, for full and fair disclosure, shall you choose not to accept, the only other option is the final solution: the elimination of all INTPs...

  10. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    To summarize: in order to best accomplish what we value, we can't outright deny the possibility that what we aim for is actually possible.
    It is possible, but it's null. Jung actually writes about that in relation to Ti. I forget exactly what he said because it interested me mostly in terms of how it generalised to all introverted function, that the final aim is the null. And I've been trying to think what expresses whatever finally impossible dream drives the operation of Ni. "Objectivity" does it for Ti, and is a contradictory notion of subjectivity so transcendent that it is free of subject, so maybe "Reality" is the Ni bogeyman/dancing girl. We know it's all subjectivity that we're on about, but the goal is to know completely "the real", the great and wonderful whole picture of everything and the way it all joins, and the key concept that holds everything as one.

    Or maybe not.

    Anyway... to at least gesture at the thread topic, and assuming any of the above is true, "objectivity" is some kind of drive that exists within a person who embraces Fe as an organisational system. (An organisational system for expressing feeling or for being feeling?)

    The existence of Fe functioning (being aware as we must that Fe is a built up system, and isn't emotion itself... it's the choice of entity about which to feel?) is supported (unconsciously) by the existence of this dream of objectivity. One is not free to feel willy-nilly, one is bound to follow reasoned connection, valid pathways... somewhere, somehow... over the rainbow... the reasoning that "Fe" represents is obliged to... to... to............................ .

    I don't freakin' know.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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