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Thread: Fe Fakeness

  1. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    You were asked to explain your conception of truth, then you quoted that request and wrote a response to it. Why you did indeed fail to explain your conception of truth I do not know.

    I never asked for your world view.
    Oh ok. My bad then.

    Probably was on that train of thought at the time. My apologies for the bore fest then.

    What is truth? is a huge and fantastic question. One I've struggled with for years. Because of temporal dimensions (eg truth in the past present and future), spacial truth (truth at a particular location in the universe), subjective truth (truth from a particular persons perspective), objective truth (applying to all objects)

    I can definitely give you a write up on that. But now it's time to relax with Breaking Bad.

  2. #232
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by five View Post
    I can definitely give you a write up on that.
    That might be what I was asking for. It should answer the question: What makes a statement true? If you do that, you have answered my request.

  3. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    +1 for trolling me.
    Fix'd

  4. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Hmmm. Well, there must be some sort of language malfunction then, because I'm certainly not the only one who has expressed that opinion when interacting with you. In fact, it seems to be the dominant perception. So if you don't mean it, it would still seem like it's coming out that way to people of various type perspectives.



    lol. You have completely changed your attitude/tone of voice in the last half hour or so.

    Yeah, I'll grant you that you have a skill that is useful -- you can analyze and explain rational process.
    But you haven't been talking about it on that meager level.

    Look, your skills are not my skills, but earlier in my life I went through phase where it was very important for me to "always be rational" so that no one could challenge my opinion and I would know I was always right. I remember arguing with people -- the ex, friends, acquaintances, people online -- about how as an INTP I was naturally "more objective" than they were because I thought through everything, analyzed it, understood the principles, didn't just make decisions from emotion or instinct but checked everything. It wasn't that I didn't have a point about INTP strengths, but that (1) I equated the INTP perspective with the way that EVERYONE should view and operate within the world, it was the ideal they always needed to live up to, and (2) I didn't properly recognize that my skills would not work within some key areas of life importance and that other skills would.

    Later, after I had had a change of heart and a realignment of my thinking (due to uncovering some inadequacies of my view), even my INTP best friend told me I had been insufferable and he was glad I had gotten my head out of my ass. I didn't have much to say about it at that point but to apologize. I also realized that I had been doing exactly what I hated when other perspectives (like Fe) saw my Ti concerns as negligible or irrelevant across the board, because I wasn't living up to THEIR views of what they thought reality was. Despite my vaunted "objectivity," I was the embodiment of the same arrogance i despised in others.

    You have a valuable skill, and it will serve you well.
    It is one valuable skill among many, and other skills will help you get an even fuller picture of the width and breadth of existence.
    INTJs are simply unable to get stuff like this, or at least the ones under 85. its pretty hard to realize and differentiate Fi compared to Si. and this differentiated third is required for using inferior properly.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  5. #235
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    Lol zaharuska(or what ever) cries on rep
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  6. #236
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    The one thing that makes me sort of willing to accept that when Jung said he was "often at variance with reality" it could still be evidence that he's an INTP, not an Ni-dom, is how at variance with reality every one of your posts is.

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    Just wondering: how much would you be willing to pay for an hour of watching @Lex Talionis and @five alone in a room together?

  8. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    The one thing that makes me sort of willing to accept that when Jung said he was "often at variance with reality" it could still be evidence that he's an INTP, not an Ni-dom, is how at variance with reality every one of your posts is.
    Yay. im same type as god of psychology
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  9. #239
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    That tie-breaker comes necessarily from Fi. But not feeling, exactly. Rather, some "value" that has grown up over the years to summarize those years worth of reaction to the environment. (EDIT: Hmmm, that claim about how the "value" arises could be thought about more... as could the question of whether there is a value or not, but let's move right along... [<- example of stipulation in action, hope the Ti doesn't get too inflamed]) So, it's less that Fe is invisible, and more that the Fe style of organisation will positively be ignored if we are to keep functioning in a way that we identify as "me". I'll go ahead and assume a similar deal applies for INFJs with Ti.
    Yeah, in IJs (probably moreso INJs) it’s that behind-the-scenes advisor-judging function which gets all bent out of sorts at tiny details- it has a big influence on the way information is organized, but it’s never directly visible (to others, unless they’re the same way). From that site, about tertiary temptation (which my link no longer works for, but I copied this before):

    Tertiary Ti (IxFJ): "I can't possibly go along with this, because it makes no sense. It's filled with internal contradictions. It's crude and not true to the real principles of how this works. It's trying to shove an inappropriately a priori conceptual structure onto the reality.

    Tertiary Fi (IxTJ): "I can't possibly go along with this, because it would mar my soul. It's not 'me'. I am a good person, and in order to maintain my integrity, I need to steer clear of this.

    I know this^ describes it rather well for me. It seems to me like the EJs I know have something similar going on- the more reasonable they are, the less they try immediately imposing what they already know on others and withdraw slightly to assimilate new information to take other viewpoints into account- but they still do it according to their own respective underlying priorities.


    It's a damn interest question, what most generates the conflict. For one, it is true that Fe and Te construct external organisation differently. For two, (and particularly in INJs), back-up judgment not only gets inflamed when there is Je conflict, but that inflammation is less conscious, less open to subtle distinction, and more likely to be insisted upon in a peremptory manner. And not only that, but the back-up judgment has a built in aversion to exactly the kind of extroverted judgment the other side is attempting. Introverted judgement WILL NOT accept stipulations based only on environmental cues. It doesn't work that way, and finds that method to be not just misleading but also CORRUPT!
    Yeah, the bolded, that’s a big ‘un. And the less aware we are individually of the ‘corruptness’ being an internal value, the more we are at the mercy of the unconscious priority and the less objective we will be able to perceive any given situation. What I find troubling is that even if we do the work to understand how our unconscious priorities affect how we organize and perceive ‘reality’- it does little to help us understand unconscious priorities that are foreign to us (as you state in the next paragraph). It helps us understand how an unconscious priority can have an affect- but how that affect manifests where the priority is foreign will remain unintelligible.

    Is communication beyond these issues possible? Or is it just the case that in the history of the world the real tie-breakers are most often merely contingent factors, like say the context gives one person more institutional authority to bull their position ahead over the other's, or the other type is faster with a knife, or one of them has more friends nearby or whatever? Or does it ever happen that one person backs down because he saw advantages in the other type's choices? Is that ever universalizable?

    Or is it just the case that the only tool of cooperation we have is the compromise of our values?
    You know, statistically speaking, and in the history of the world, there have to have been successful Fe/Ti and Te/Fi relationships out there. I don’t think most people want to do the work of really finding an OMG11! same page, so it probably does come down to the ersatz resolution via contingent factors. I suspect this event in its most common form passes without incident, or is quickly replaced by other concerns like what to eat for dinner. When looking at it under a microscope like this, though, it does seem almost overwhelming- like, how do we even communicate at all?
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  10. #240
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    You know, statistically speaking, and in the history of the world, there have to have been successful Fe/Ti and Te/Fi relationships out there. I don’t think most people want to do the work of really finding an OMG11! same page, so it probably does come down to the ersatz resolution via contingent factors. I suspect this event in its most common form passes without incident, or is quickly replaced by other concerns like what to eat for dinner. When looking at it under a microscope like this, though, it does seem almost overwhelming- like, how do we even communicate at all?
    Yeah. e5's un-unite! *air hi5*

    The concepts of differentiation/maturity tell us eventually we make--or learn to make, or aspire to make--conscious distinctions between the two kinds of judgment we employ. Eventually, it would seem, we "get" the difference between (and the different conclusions that follow from) subjective inner focus and objective outer focus in our own functioning. Something about this process suggests to me that perhaps there comes a time for, or there is a process that sees us one day actually, granting other people, in our own consciousness, the right to be different. I wonder how that works.

    Re the thread topic though, it did occur to me to wonder, if INTJs lose some of their "not influenced by emotion" objectivity to the existence of relatively unconscious subjective feeling (and blah blah blah, the same for all other Te/Fi types), then what do we say for INFJs (and blah blah blah, possibly all Fe/Ti types)....?

    That the seemingly penetrating empathy and the search for harmony is sometimes diminished by a semi-conscious attachment to reason?


    LOL. That possibly sounds like I'm trying to be rude, but it's more or a reductio ad absurdum attempt. The seeming contradiction of a "faker" being driven around by unconscious attachment to truth suggests there is some... something... to talk about, the meaning of "authenticity" maybe.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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