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Thread: Fe Fakeness

  1. #91
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I thought of more to say.....I feel like the Fi stance gets misrepresented when it's not FPs arguing it. The FPs in here seem a lot more temperate than Fi is being described by non FP types.

    Here's the thing with emotion & Feelers....emotion often ADDS clarity for us, where as with T types it can seem to cloud communication.
    Emotion is a signal, both within ourselves & to others, that something is important. Since Fs are value-oriented, emotion is a useful signal. The lack of emotion signals "I don't care", and a lot of emotions signals "This is VERY important".

    Most of the time, I simply take Fe emotions as a communication, and it does not bother me. I have little reason to assume most FJs are being fake or manipulate. I don't have a problem with emotional people; I feel like I know where I stand with them. I also find something courageous in emotional expression; a Fi type can have vulnerability issues with positive emotion that I won't go into now.

    However, the problem may arise when the Fe type is seeking to affect someone with their emotion. This is often why they are more emotionally expressive than Fi types; they are seeking to create consensus. Consensus leads to harmony & productivity. This is a useful method; Fe is all about value in terms of viability (Jung: "extraverted feeling proves itself a creative factor. Without this feeling, for instance, a beautiful and harmonious sociability would be unthinkable."). Emotion conveys significance to people in a swift manner that hits at the heart of a matter. It's efficient & effective.

    Fi types however, RESIST being affected & does not often seek to affect (Jung: "...with no desire to affect others, to impress, influence, or change them in any way.)". They seek to keep a purity of feeling, uncontaminated by external forces. This too has great importance (which I won't bother to explain for the sake of brevity). To the Fe type though, this can seem uncooperative. To the Fi type, the Fe type can seem intrusive & manipulative & demanding. Better the Fe type uses reason to appeal to the Fi type, that way the Fi type feels allowed to assign their own value to something. Fi doesn't allow Fe to take shortcuts, the same way Ti doesn't with Te; and Fe, like Te, assumes its obviously correct & has no need to explain why.

    When Fi finds Fe fake, again, it is often based on EXTERNAL DATA, and often his data is gathered OVER TIME, &/or it is based on a deep understanding of human nature & a grasp of the big picture of patterns in people (probably more true of NFPs; SFPs likely use more concrete, immediate data than big picture patterns).

    Fe sometimes denies Fi even exists (Jung: "To the outside world, or to the blind eyes of the extravert, this intensive sympathy looks like coldness, because it usually does nothing visible, and an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces."). I've seen Fe types around here belittle the "powers" of Fi. "Anything Fi can do, Fe can do better". That's because Fe skims the surface & doesn't even see the deep well of understanding Fi holds when it comes to people. Fe sees feeling as visible, and since it is more visible than Fi, it sees itself as better. But Fi is a profound, fundamental understanding of the human condition; it has to be, because it judges value based on what individual humans need & who they are at the most basic level. The self is the prototype; that is all. If Fe is the flower, then Fi is the roots of the plant when it comes to human feeling.

    So yeah, a person who is in touch with the basic workings of people is pretty good at spotting inauthentic emotion, which amounts to a conflict of what is expressed & what is truly valued by someone.

    Van der Hoop says that the Fi type is more aware of inner conflicts, conflicts with the self & the environment, and conflicts within others; but the Fe type is NOT always aware of all of these conflicts, or not to the same degree (While the Fe-type will repress, for the sake of harmony, things both in himself and in the external world which do not accord with his ideal, the Fi-type will remain more aware of such conflicts). The Fe type can be unaware that their expressed feeling does not match their inner feeling, thus appearing fake to others* (see below quote). The Fe type, however, does not FEEL fake because feeling to them is what is appropriate externally (Jung: "it has freed itself as fully as possible from the subjective factor, and has, instead, become wholly subordinated to the influence of the object."). The inner feeling is suppressed, and they remain unaware of any inner conflict (this is the reverse of how Fi types resist external influence on their Feeling). However, the Fi type IS aware of it in themselves & often in others if they get enough Pe data. So for those who get mad when an ENFP claims to see a feeling in you that you don't feel, maybe they're right! Take it up with Jung if you don't like it (get some INFJ to channel him for you ).


    *Jung on Fe: ...it almost seems as though the personality were wholly dissolved in the feeling of the moment. ...Apparently, he is this one moment, and something completely different the next... [However] the basis of the ego always remains identical with itself, and, therefore, appears definitely opposed to the changing states of feeling. Accordingly the observer senses the display of feeling not so much as a personal expression of the [Fe type] as an alteration of his ego, a mood.... Corresponding with the degree of dissociation between the ego and the momentary state of feeling, signs of disunion with the self will become more or less evident..... This reveals itself, in the first instance, in extravagant demonstrations of feeling, in loud and obtrusive feeling predicates, which leave one, however, somewhat incredulous. They ring hollow; they are not convincing. On the contrary, they at once give one an inkling of a resistance [in the Fe type] that is being overcompensated, and one begins to wonder whether [their true] feeling-judgment might ...be entirely different. In fact, in a very short time it actually is different. Only a very slight alteration in the situation is needed to provoke.... an entirely contrary estimation of the same object. The result of such an experience is that the observer is unable to take either judgment [from the Fe type] at all seriously.
    Last edited by OrangeAppled; 09-21-2011 at 10:12 PM. Reason: typos
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  2. #92
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    But oh no.... you are being a drama queen because you just snapped at me and are making an issue of getting your emotions acknowledged (not necessarily accepted but acknowledged).
    !!!!
    Barring the other person is a complete nutjob, I try to acknowledge their emotions no matter how "stupid" or "irrational" I may view their feelings.
    This is all that I ask. Validation!
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  3. #93
    Glycerine
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    Most of the descriptions of Fe make it sound rather shallow and Fi is so profound but I guess that could be said of the extroverted vs. introverted functions.

  4. #94
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    Most of the descriptions of Fe make it sound rather shallow and Fi is so profound but I guess that could be said of the extroverted vs. introverted functions.
    "Breadth" & "depth" are often used to contrast E & I functions, respectively . They're a little less biased terms. "Shallow" is often from the perspective of an introvert.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    "Breadth" & "depth" are often used to contrast E & I functions, respectively . They're a little less biased terms. "Shallow" is often from the perspective of an introvert.
    It's interesting how FPs don't agree with how non FP users define Fi and I hardly if ever relate to how FPs define Fe. It just seems SO foreign to me how the majority define it. I bet this usually becomes the downfall of these types of threads.

  6. #96
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    it would be problematic to allow this place to get so caught up in worrying about people's feelings that truths become indistinguishable from untruths. I think a spade should be called for a spade, and I don't believe I should have to spend so much of my energy, as I said above, wrapping the truth up in a pleasant package, when it's time and energy-consuming enough just to deliver the raw truth as it is.
    QFT, and not just here, but anywhere. It is amazing how much energy is consumed by this kind of pussyfooting around. (Huge pet peeve of mine.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I find shitting on people's false truth claims to be an effective way of saying, "Hey, don't go around making truth claims, if you don't really know what you're talking about. Feel free to qualify what you're saying, recognizing that you're just speaking out loud, or trying to figure out what the truth is, but don't go around making it sound like you're an authority on the matter, when obviously you're not."
    I suppose I'm not sure what you mean by "shitting on". As long as there is no name-calling or insults, telling someone "your assertion is wrong because . . . " seems unobjectionable enough, not to mention the most efficient way to call a spade a spade.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    "Breadth" & "depth" are often used to contrast E & I functions, respectively . They're a little less biased terms. "Shallow" is often from the perspective of an introvert.
    Yep, we call them shallow, they call us nit-picky, no one function can do it all perfectly, etc.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    This is not at all coming from a place of malice but would you be able to do away "niceties"? From your perspective, is it primarily a function of Fe?
    Umm, yeah, I guess.

    I'm not saying there's no place for them, or I always hate them, or people can't impress me with their fluency with them.

    I just don't feel a particularly authentic pull to abide by them, but I feel/am judged by others if I do not.

    And I feel that it's FJs and TPs who are most likely to judge me in this way.

    FPs are more like, "Let muthafuckin bygones be bygones!"

    And TJs are like, "I don't wanna do this shit, either."



    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Well, that's Jung's language for you. To really try to show why e/i is not merely about where a function is "used".
    I'm finally putting the work in and reading 'Psychological Types'.

    I have not grabbed ahold of that particular primordial image yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by allegorystory View Post
    I'm beginning to think with this and the boobs that this thread is in the wrong section.

    Or it just might be the most interesting Fe-Fi thread yet.

    Which is not a truth claim (I thought I should clarify ). I've never read any of the other ones.


    No need to worry!

    You used proper qualification!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I suppose I'm not sure what you mean by "shitting on". As long as there is no name-calling or insults, telling someone "your assertion is wrong because . . . " seems unobjectionable enough, not to mention the most efficient way to call a spade a spade.
    I was just using the term that @redcheerio decided to use.

    I would assume that a number of my posts above would, iho, count as "shitting on".

    (Granted, I can understand this term, as I do not deny using harsh invective in my posts.)

  9. #99
    Glycerine
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    Fe dom bows out.

  10. #100
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    See, I say "have you considered it's because you suck at Fe", and you take that as me insulting you.

    But, to me, that's just stating a very likely fact -- we usually suck at the 7th and 8th functions!

    I can't tell you how many times I've said on this forum and irl that I suck at Fe and Si.

    So do you think I'm insulting myself when I do this?
    To be honest, I've never found your posts interesting enough to read them in any level of detail and thus determine whether talking about how much you (and others) suck is representative of your style...
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