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  1. #161
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Per your words: there are many of them, so I was hoping you could be something other than a and point me to which one it was.
    I said i dont remember which one was it. my english cant be so bad that you couldnt be able to understand that..

    But the question remains, why havent you done that google search before and watched every documentary you found?
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    I said i dont remember which one was it. my english cant be so bad that you couldnt be able to understand that..
    No, but your English does seem to be so bad that you didn't understand what I meant when I replied, "I'd be interested in seeing the documentary, if you could remember which one it is", and so you felt the need to respond like the little you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    But the question remains, why havent you done that google search before and watched every documentary you found?
    I actually have done that search, and I actually have watched a number of them.

    I also put together a list of every DVD Netflix has about him, so I can watch them if and when I feel like it.

  3. #163
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    At this point, I don't think he ever knew, for sure.
    I assumed he knew.... but I suppose if you look at the fact that it was all being written at the time, he was probably overly-skeptical, with reason.
    There is too much conflicting information, that he actually SAID HIMSELF.

    So anything we would guess would be just that, a guess. He thought he was one-thing in one interview, another-thing in a book, etc. etc.

    I also think he mentioned that he thought personality types could change, which may be why we are getting conflicting information from him. So he himself may've thought he was different types at different points throughout life. Someone could actually make the argument for me being a different type 10 years ago......based on what they had seen. He may've been typing himself based on what he was feeling/seeing of himself at that time. It was all up in the air. He was trying to figure it all out.

    So one guess is as good as the next..... ha. I think we can get close, but knowing for sure is at-this-time, not an option. All of this may be obvious to you, but it's all new to me, so..... I just don't have too much time to sink into it, although I find it interesting.
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  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    So, if I'm hearing you correctly, in this particular statement, you are arguing he was an INFJ?
    I'm saying that, based on the premise that he actually told Stephen Abrams on Dec. 18th, 1959 at his house in Kusnacht, Switzerland, that he was an introverted intuitive, then I think he was an INFJ over an INTJ, because I definitely sense the presence of heavy Ti-usage in him, and heavy Ti-usage is far more likely to develop in an INFJ than it was in an INTJ (more on this later).

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    The tertiary is not going to develop before the auxiliary.
    Not in normal, healthy development.

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Again, you are thinking too abtrusely.
    What you'd like to call "abstruse" here, I would call nuance, subtlety, and accuracy. Similarly, I'd call your attempt to call this line of thinking "abstruse" a misunderstanding derived from lack of adequate knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    At 8 the auxiliary is starting to be utilized over the other functions (besides the dominant).
    In normal, healthy cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I don't see an 8 year old leaning toward 'tertiary temptation.'
    Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    He would then just have a different auxiliary, would he not?
    No, that's the entire point of tertiary temptation.

    It's the escape hatch for MBTI that allows it to posit just 16 types.

    The point is that, if you develop two functions of the same attitudinal orientation (i.e., both introverted, or both extroverted) first, the second one is not actually your auxiliary, it is your tertiary. If you were to be developing healthily, you would instead be developing a function of opposite attitudinal orientation to these two functions, based on the two functions you are developing actually being your dominant and your tertiary.

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    You are very attached to the Ni theory.
    I don't know if "attached" is the right word.

    As you can see in my original post, I think there's a lot of reasons to think he was an Ni-user, including his pronounced mysticism, spirituality, and supposed clairvoyant visions of the future. Actually, along this line of thought, you never responded to what I wrote earlier in this post (largely to you):

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra
    Yeah, some of the things you said are why I could see him being a Ti-dom -- specifically the way he described things.

    But, honestly, in the BBC interview he says something that it's hard for me to believe that any Ti-dom would say.

    Honestly, what Ti-dom, when asked, "Do you believe there is a God?", says, "I don't believe. I know."

    To me, that just sounds like something straight out of the mouth of an INFJ.
    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    If Jung was an INTP, he could just as easily have an overly developed Ni, since Ne was his aux function. You know the functions tests on here.....most people seemed to have a good use of both attitudes of their aux function, and even tert function, esp the older one gets.
    I think you were gone when I started 16 threads, one for each type, to look at the cognitive processes results of people allegedly of each type. The results were really interesting, but, as an Ni-dom, I still stand back, and don't choose whether I believe strongly in the camp that people do normally develop their first two shadow functions, or whether they really only use their four normal functions for the most part, and that people just learn to do similar things that their first two shadow functions are usually known for, but they're actually just utilizing their first two normal functions to do so (@uumlau used to be a believer in the former, but recently said that he's switched over to the latter -- I remain a little more neutral on the matter).

    Wherever the truth may lie: I think the second shadow function is undoubtedly much more difficult to develop than the first (which is not to say it cannot and does not happen), so, in the same line of reasoning as that which I said at the beginning of this post -- that I don't think you'll normally see heavy Ti usage in an INTJ -- I don't think you'll normally see heavy Ni usage in an INTP.

    At least not as much as I think is present in Jung.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    At this point, I don't think he ever knew, for sure.
    I assumed he knew.... but I suppose if you look at the fact that it was all being written at the time, he was probably overly-skeptical, with reason.
    There is too much conflicting information, that he actually SAID HIMSELF.

    So anything we would guess would be just that, a guess. He thought he was one-thing in one interview, another-thing in a book, etc. etc.

    I also think he mentioned that he thought personality types could change, which may be why we are getting conflicting information from him. So he himself may've thought he was different types at different points throughout life. Someone could actually make the argument for me being a different type 10 years ago......based on what they had seen. He may've been typing himself based on what he was feeling/seeing of himself at that time. It was all up in the air. He was trying to figure it all out.

    So one guess is as good as the next..... ha. I think we can get close, but knowing for sure is at-this-time, not an option. All of this may be obvious to you, but it's all new to me, so..... I just don't have too much time to sink into it, although I find it interesting.
    This is almost the exact same way I think about it.

    Remember, when he died, the MBTI wasn't even published.

    I don't know whether he was ever even aware of MBTI's 4-letter notation.

    And Jung believed in things that we (for the most part) no longer do: that the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th functions are all of the same attitude.

    Typology has developed a lot since Jung (which is not to say that his work on the matter is not amazing, important, and extremely insightful -- it is), and, sometimes, as crucial as they are to blazing the trail, the trailblazer doesn't actually have the best view of things. The trail is often easier to travail for those who come after the trailblazer, and are able to stand on his shoulders, and benefit from what he accomplished (not to mention the accomplishments of those who further blazed the same and related trails after him).

  6. #166
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    This is almost the exact same way I think about it.

    Remember, when he died, the MBTI wasn't even published.

    I don't know whether he was ever even aware of MBTI's 4-letter notation.

    And Jung believed in things that we (for the most part) no longer do: that the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th functions are all of the same attitude.

    Typology has developed a lot since Jung (which is not to say that his work on the matter is not amazing, important, and extremely insightful -- it is), and, sometimes, as crucial as they are to blazing the trail, the trailblazer doesn't actually have the best view of things. The trail is often easier to travail for those who come after the trailblazer, and are able to stand on his shoulders, and benefit from what he accomplished (not to mention the accomplishments of those who further blazed the same and related trails after him).
    Yes, pretty much true. I have considered the fact that mbti was not yet created during his escapades.

    I really need to read some of his material......
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  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    I really need to read some of his material......
    I think that is definitely a good idea.

    I'm digging deeper into his stuff as well.

    ***

    I also take back what I said about you before.

    While you were a bit prematurely dismissive at first, you ended up being very reasonable.

  8. #168
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I think that is definitely a good idea.

    I'm digging deeper into his stuff as well.

    ***

    I also take back what I said about you before.

    While you were a bit prematurely dismissive at first, you ended up being very reasonable.
    LoL, I can be moody.... Yes, sometimes I can be rushed and brash..... but I usually come around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    LoL, I can be moody.... Yes, sometimes I can be rushed and brash..... but I usually come around.
    For a first encounter, I have had much worse.


  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Interesting thread.

    "Well, you see, the type is nothing static, it changes with the course of life. But I most certainly was characterized by thinking, I always thought, from early childhood on, and I had a great deal of intuition, too. And, I had a definite difficulty with feeling. And my relationship to reality was not particularly brilliant. I was often at variance with the reality of things. Now that gives you all the necessary data for the diagnosis."
    Note that he doesn't say. Given the video interview plus his mannerisms, I find INTx to be very likely, with a bias toward J because I see lots of Ni in his intuitiveness.

    Some thoughts:
    1. Would the father of typology (relatively speaking) list off their top two functions in the wrong order of preference?
    I don't think he had a concept of "order of preference". I believe his model was much more free-form than ours.

    2. No Te user would ever write that way, so it rules out INTJ. Definite Ti user.
    I cannot draw this conclusion as easily as you appear to. Not saying you're wrong, but it isn't a slam-dunk to me.

    3. If he was an INFJ, would he say that he had a definite difficult with feeling? Would he emphasize thinking and intuition?
    I would posit this as a possibility. I've seen plenty of INFJs misidentify themselves as INTJs just because they don't believe themselves to be so irrational and affected by feeling as they believe an INFJ would be.

    I mean, if I were a lawyer, I could argue anything. The simplest answer is usually the right one though. Seems INTP to me. Of course he could be wrong about his type and it could that others are correct. I interpreted his statements to mean INTP though.
    FWIW, I don't believe he had a concept of "INTP."

    Maybe he was just trying to screw with people too.
    I doubt this.

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    So, if I'm hearing you correctly, in this particular statement, you are arguing he was an INFJ?

    His definition of Fe is the worst out of all his definitions. He defines it loosely (for him) and even inaccurately (based on being an Fe user myself), and comparing his wonderful definitions and descriptions of Ti/Te. Te and Fe should be analogous but they are not; he leaves things out in his Fe descriptors.

    Definitely NOT an INFJ.
    Interesting comments. This would tend to eliminate both INFJ and INTP as possibilities (to the degree that our 21st-century MBTI analysis would apply to Jung's own understanding of his theory).

    The tertiary is not going to develop before the auxiliary. Again, you are thinking too abtrusely. At 8 the auxiliary is starting to be utilized over the other functions (besides the dominant). I don't see an 8 year old leaning toward 'tertiary temptation.' He would then just have a different auxiliary, would he not?

    You are very attached to the Ni theory. If Jung was an INTP, he could just as easily have an overly developed Ni, since Ne was his aux function. You know the functions tests on here.....most people seemed to have a good use of both attitudes of their aux function, and even tert function, esp the older one gets.
    No, he'd not develop an Ni and an Ne. They have a lot in common, but they are different modes of thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I think you were gone when I started 16 threads, one for each type, to look at the cognitive processes results of people allegedly of each type. The results were really interesting, but, as an Ni-dom, I still stand back, and don't choose whether I believe strongly in the camp that people do normally develop their first two shadow functions, or whether they really only use their four normal functions for the most part, and that people just learn to do similar things that their first two shadow functions are usually known for, but they're actually just utilizing their first two normal functions to do so (@uumlau used to be a believer in the former, but recently said that he's switched over to the latter -- I remain a little more neutral on the matter).
    I'm not sure that your attributions of my beliefs are accurate, either in the "former" or the "recently said" sense.


    Wherever the truth may lie: I think the second shadow function is undoubtedly much more difficult to develop than the first (which is not to say it cannot and does not happen), so, in the same line of reasoning as that which I said at the beginning of this post -- that I don't think you'll normally see heavy Ti usage in an INTJ -- I don't think you'll normally see heavy Ni usage in an INTP.

    At least not as much as I think is present in Jung.
    One thing to consider is his age in the interview. He notes that type changes over time. I wonder what he would have said his type is at that point.

    It should be noted that both INTJs and INTPs tend to become "teddy bears" in later life, finally connecting with Fi or Fe, as appropriate. Look for hints of Fi vs Fe to tell the difference. If Aphrodite's comments about Jung's Fe analysis are apt, that would imply INTJ.

    For my part, I'm fairly certain of the Ni in Jung. He is concerned about "why", about "cause and effect", he has a concern with timelike rather than spacelike aspects of psychology. I would agree with him that he's more T than F, which leads me to the somewhat awkward conclusion of INTJ.

    Frankly, I'd want to watch more videos of him and just see how he reacts and interacts. That's where the typology really becomes visible. It's not so visible in writing, especially with an adept and practiced writer. INFJ with a focus on Ti is also very likely, especially with his preoccupation with mysticism and spirituality and the soul ... but even then, INTJs tend to be attracted to archetypal personality systems like astrology, even in spite of evidence against.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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