User Tag List

First 23456 Last

Results 31 to 40 of 54

Thread: INFP - ISFP

  1. #31
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,991

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I don't think he's archetypal, for the reasons stated.. That he saw a way to redeem Vader. Redemption is not archetypal in hero stories. That's left for saints and martyrs.
    Luke did not see a way to redeem Vader, Vader redeemed himself through his love for his son. The death scene invoked the Christian paradigms of sacrifice and redemption, but redemption cannot be archetypal anyway. A redeemer can be archetypal, and I don't see why a redeemer can't exist in hero stories. But I don't see Luke as Vader's redeemer: his love for his son, and his sacrifice, was payment for his redemption from the Dark Side.

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Otherwise, the rest of the story is archetypal. Lucas did take a card from Joseph Campbell, after all. But most heroes don't leave room for Vader. Antiheroes definitely don't, but even the usual goody goody hero doesn't. Most heroes are written in a way where they'd be "betraying" their cause by not ending it with someone like that.
    The first series definitely had a kind of twist ending. Typically, the villain dies, and then somehow resurrects for the sequelae. Most of the time, I think, the villain's body was never found and thus presumed dead. And in the sequel, the author has to invent some complicated reason for his survival. I can think of three instances of the use of this type of trope in fiction without even raising a sweat.

    But throughout the first SW series, we are led to believe that Vader is completely engulfed by the Dark Side. In fact, a little bit of Anakin had survived somewhere within him. I think Luke must have sensed this - I don't remember - and tried to sway Vader back to the Good because Vader was his father. In no other fiction that I can think of was the major villain in any way related to the hero.

    In any case, if there was even a bit of Good in Vader, then Vader deserved to be redeemed because there was still hope. A hero always lives on hope, and that's another reason why Luke was the archetypal Hero.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #32
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    8,263

    Default

    Interesting points, but we'll agree to disagree. I just see him as an exception among heroes. Usually they're rooted in something... Hercules-like. He's one of history's archetypal heroes. Or in modern terms, Superman and Wonder Woman. A bit more on the "Lawful Good" side, rather than concerned about redemption. Or some could be like that Braveheart character, who doesn't blink an eye when he pins that English captain against the post and slices his throat, with no comment. These are the type of people bards would sing songs about. I'd think their reaction to Luke would be "Huh? Hmm.. I might have to rewrite this."

  3. #33
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,991

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Skywalker is INFP and Yoda is INFJ, right?
    Who are you asking? Luke Skywalker showed no signs of iNtuition. His concerns were primarily with the immediate moment, his manner of speech was mostly abrupt. His motives were the Fi's notion of love, particularly, love and concern for the welfare of others, even Vader his father in the final scene.

    This goes back to what I was saying originally about the ISFP. Luke had his "mama bear," which are really "papa wolf," moments of anger, as when the Emperor psychologically coerced him into striking the first blow in the final scene. But Luke did not do so on the basis of some ideal, but primarily because he was hearing the Emperor gloat evilly while seeing the rebel fleet, and all his friends, being decimated right before his eyes.

    Edit - I keep thinking about Luke's straight-foward Sensing methodology used for such things as storming Jabba's fortress.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #34
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,991

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Interesting points, but we'll agree to disagree. I just see him as an exception among heroes. Usually they're rooted in something... Hercules-like. He's one of history's archetypal heroes. Or in modern terms, Superman and Wonder Woman. A bit more on the "Lawful Good" side, rather than concerned about redemption. Or some could be like that Braveheart character, who doesn't blink an eye when he pins that English captain against the post and slices his throat, with no comment. These are the type of people bards would sing songs about. I'd think their reaction to Luke would be "Huh? Hmm.. I might have to rewrite this."
    Rooted in something? I like your "lawful good" comment, as it regards justice. But William Wallace was a bad example, as he was attempting to redeem the Scots from English rule.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #35
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    8,263

    Default

    I meant that the typical concept of hero is rooted in Hercules.. or that Greek tradition in general. The idea of Luke is a relatively new conception of heroic, I think. Maybe I'm wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    Rooted in something? I like your "lawful good" comment, as it regards justice. But William Wallace was a bad example, as he was attempting to redeem the Scots from English rule.
    Maybe that is too political.. But I was looking for a realistic/historical figure off the top of my head who achieved a kind of exaggerrated status.. someone real who had heroic tales written about him. Perhaps there are even more heroes like this in literature than the mythical ones. Richard the Lionheart, Achilles, etc.. They're all bloody and fight for some political reason.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,991

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    But throughout the first SW series, we are led to believe that Vader is completely engulfed by the Dark Side. In fact, a little bit of Anakin had survived somewhere within him. I think Luke must have sensed this - I don't remember
    Click to the 1:32 point of this video - I knew I remembered something like this.

    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #37
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    8,263

    Default

    Personally, I don't think he sensed anything. He projected. As people like him tend to do. They see a core of goodness in all humanity. That's what I think he was really feeling.

    In a way, I think hope like that is more about having transformative power.. rather than bringing out what's really there. They remake what is there. So I guess that's why I don't disagree when I see him typed INFP. That's essentially what Ne does. It realizes new possibilities. INFP's specific strength is in the area of relationships and their outlook on humanity, and Luke isn't a bad symbol of it.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,991

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Personally, I don't think he sensed anything. He projected. As people like him tend to do. They see a core of goodness in all humanity. That's what I think he was really feeling.
    Actually, Luke said he read his mind. ("Your thoughts betray you, father.") And he feels the conflict.

    The fact that Luke was right about those thoughts and feelings is proven within two minutes.

    I don't think you've watched very much Star Wars if you believe Luke was "projecting" something, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    In a way, I think hope like that is more about having transformative power.. rather than bringing out what's really there. They remake what is there. So I guess that's why I don't disagree when I see him typed INFP. That's essentially what Ne does. It realizes new possibilities. INFP's specific strength is in the area of relationships and their outlook on humanity, and Luke isn't a bad symbol of it.
    If Luke actually had an outlook on humanity, I would agree with you.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #39
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    8,263

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    I don't think you've watched very much Star Wars if you believe Luke was "projecting" something, lol.
    Heh. If we're going to take all the fantasy stuff into account, I admit you have a point. I'm just saying.. if we could apply some of what he says to real life, as best as possible, then he's projecting.

    If Luke actually had an outlook on humanity, I would agree with you.
    Again, if this was real, then that's what it would take for someone like that to turn their cheek with a villain, and say "There's good in you." It would stem from their worldview.. a rather elevated one at that. Not something merely situational. Let alone something to do with mind reading.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,991

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Heh. If we're going to take all the fantasy stuff into account, I admit you have a point. I'm just saying.. if we could apply some of what he says to real life, as best as possible, then he's projecting.



    Again, if this was real, then that's what it would take for someone like that to turn their cheek with a villain, and say "There's good in you." It would stem from their worldview.. a rather elevated one at that. Not something merely situational. Let alone something to do with mind reading.
    The father-son relationship is very situational.

    I need Luke to state some of his NF concerns for humanity. But he doesn't. Luke's motives go no deeper than defeating the Empire and living happily ever after.

    In Keirsey terms, Luke was an SP strategist. Talking to his father about his secret thoughts and feelings was a winning strategy, as you see within a couple minutes of film when Vader finds himself looking from the Emperor to Luke and back again, torn between his loyalty to his master and saving his son.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

Similar Threads

  1. INFP/ISFP & T mixture?
    By Vika in forum What's my Type?
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 06-16-2010, 03:53 PM
  2. Thoughts on INFP-ISFP Relationships?
    By ElusiveRain in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 12-17-2009, 11:45 PM
  3. Blahhhrrrr, the tests tell me INFP, ISFP or INTP.
    By Liminality in forum What's my Type?
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 09-04-2009, 09:25 AM
  4. BlackCat- INTJ? INFP? ISFP?
    By BlackCat in forum What's my Type?
    Replies: 137
    Last Post: 07-26-2009, 08:45 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO