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  1. #11
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Mine: Truth. It's a very basic and instinctive value so it's very much related to TiSi. I tried to discard it once because it's hinders the achievement of goals,(you have to lie to people and such) but I kept feeling ridiculously bad about it.

    Next is empathy. If you can relate, then you should cooperate. Also, quite primal.

    Then Fun. If you don't like it, don't do it.

    Discarding: Competence and Social Acceptance.

    After that, no more. I try to keep it small because of utilitarianism.

  2. #12
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amerellis View Post
    I disagree that the ends justifies the means. You should never sacrafice other morals in the quest to achieve a "greater good." The means influences the ends and how you come about something should be clean and honest and dignified otherwise your whole effort will be fowled and corrupted.
    Yes. Process matters, otherwise genocide would be acceptable.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by amerellis View Post
    I disagree that the ends justifies the means. You should never sacrafice other morals in the quest to achieve a "greater good." The means influences the ends and how you come about something should be clean and honest and dignified otherwise your whole effort will be fowled and corrupted.
    Well, framing it in a good/evil dichotomy, let's say that, in order to prevent a horrific, terrible situation from coming about, one which would negatively affect everyone involved, you were forced to do a number of unsavory, terrible things yourself (though not as bad as the final end you are trying to avoid). Let's say that, in the end, all of these ruthless means you took it upon yourself to put in motion actually worked, and prevented the great catastrophe. Would you then say that the end (preventing a horrific, long lasting disaster) did not justify the means (causing short term suffering)? What would you say if someone did not go through with these means, and allowed this horrifying situation to materialize without having done anything about it, causing much more suffering in the end? Would he not be to blame, since he had it in his power to minimize the suffering caused?

  4. #14
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Guess View Post
    Well, framing it in a good/evil dichotomy, let's say that, in order to prevent a horrific, terrible situation from coming about, one which would negatively affect everyone involved, you were forced to do a number of unsavory, terrible things yourself (though not as bad as the final end you are trying to avoid). Let's say that, in the end, all of these ruthless means you took it upon yourself to put in motion actually worked, and prevented the great catastrophe. Would you then say that the end (preventing a horrific, long lasting disaster) did not justify the means (causing short term suffering)? What would you say if someone did not go through with these means, and allowed this horrifying situation to materialize without having done anything about it, causing much more suffering in the end? Would he not be to blame, since he had it in his power to minimize the suffering caused?
    Assumptive, since no one is omnipotent hence cannot predict the future. It's also assumptive to believe that one construct is the only "right" or "good" construct.

  5. #15
    Senior Member amerellis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Guess View Post
    Well, framing it in a good/evil dichotomy, let's say that, in order to prevent a horrific, terrible situation from coming about, one which would negatively affect everyone involved, you were forced to do a number of unsavory, terrible things yourself (though not as bad as the final end you are trying to avoid). Let's say that, in the end, all of these ruthless means you took it upon yourself to put in motion actually worked, and prevented the great catastrophe. Would you then say that the end (preventing a horrific, long lasting disaster) did not justify the means (causing short term suffering)? What would you say if someone did not go through with these means, and allowed this horrifying situation to materialize without having done anything about it, causing much more suffering in the end? Would he not be to blame, since he had it in his power to minimize the suffering caused?
    That's more utillitarian ethics and I wouldn't consider it sacraficing your morals necessarily? However, I have a hard time ever imagining a situation where that would come about, where it would be necessary to use suffering to prevent more suffering but if/when that happens I would tend to agree that's what's best is best even if it is a dark shade of grey.
    When I was writing my post I more had in mind people with political agendas who cheat and smear in order to try and get their side into power.
    Also, Jenaphor makes a good point. You are making assumptions.
    Also, I just don't see how you would need to do all these terrible things to prevent something terrible. I'm sure there could be a better way.

  6. #16
    Intergalactic Badass mujigay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amerellis View Post
    That's more utillitarian ethics and I wouldn't consider it sacraficing your morals necessarily? However, I have a hard time ever imagining a situation where that would come about, where it would be necessary to use suffering to prevent more suffering but if/when that happens I would tend to agree that's what's best is best even if it is a dark shade of grey.
    When I was writing my post I more had in mind people with political agendas who cheat and smear in order to try and get their side into power.
    Also, Jenaphor makes a good point. You are making assumptions.
    Also, I just don't see how you would need to do all these terrible things to prevent something terrible. I'm sure there could be a better way.
    You're an optimistic person, I see.

    Not that I blame you, but sometimes you have to do unsavoury things to get to the "best" end.
    1w9 sx/sp
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Assumptive, since no one is omnipotent hence cannot predict the future. It's also assumptive to believe that one construct is the only "right" or "good" construct.
    In that case, why attempt to plan for the future at all? If a disaster seems imminent, all preparations should be made to deal with it, whether or not it ends up fully materializing; the cost of underpreparation is much higher than the cost of overpreparation, in this case. Also, it would depend on where your priorities lay; personal feelings should not interfere with making decisions that affect a large number of people, unless your personal feelings are your main priority. If you want to prevent the suffering of a large number of people, then your personal feelings will have to take a backseat to this goal. If you want to follow your personal feelings, then you will have to deal with the consequences of the suffering you have caused, instead of pretending that you are following some outdated concept of "good and evil".

    As for your second statement, if you are following one path, and are committed enough to it, pandering to someone else's value system will do you no good, since a) you have chosen yours for valid reasons, b) what makes their perspective any more important than your own, and c) they are not doing the same for you, obviously. You cannot make everyone happy; focus on making yourself happy first, and don't worry about satisfying people who don't wish to make you happy.

    Quote Originally Posted by amerellis
    That's more utillitarian ethics and I wouldn't consider it sacraficing your morals necessarily? However, I have a hard time ever imagining a situation where that would come about, where it would be necessary to use suffering to prevent more suffering but if/when that happens I would tend to agree that's what's best is best even if it is a dark shade of grey.
    When I was writing my post I more had in mind people with political agendas who cheat and smear in order to try and get their side into power.
    Also, Jenaphor makes a good point. You are making assumptions.
    Also, I just don't see how you would need to do all these terrible things to prevent something terrible. I'm sure there could be a better way.
    You're an idealist, I see . There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but sometimes in life, tough decisions need to be made, and not all of them will leave everyone happy. As for people who lie, cheat and steal for their own gain; politics is a dirty game, and one where ruthlessness is rewarded. Sort of a "survival of the fittest" thing, since the ones who aren't willing to be ruthless for their own sake might not be able to stomach ruthlessness for another's sake, either. You're better off using people's dirty little games for your own benefit than you are expecting them to change.

  8. #18
    Senior Member amerellis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Guess View Post
    In that case, why attempt to plan for the future at all? If a disaster seems imminent, all preparations should be made to deal with it, whether or not it ends up fully materializing; the cost of underpreparation is much higher than the cost of overpreparation, in this case. Also, it would depend on where your priorities lay; personal feelings should not interfere with making decisions that affect a large number of people, unless your personal feelings are your main priority. If you want to prevent the suffering of a large number of people, then your personal feelings will have to take a backseat to this goal. If you want to follow your personal feelings, then you will have to deal with the consequences of the suffering you have caused, instead of pretending that you are following some outdated concept of "good and evil".

    As for your second statement, if you are following one path, and are committed enough to it, pandering to someone else's value system will do you no good, since a) you have chosen yours for valid reasons, b) what makes their perspective any more important than your own, and c) they are not doing the same for you, obviously. You cannot make everyone happy; focus on making yourself happy first, and don't worry about satisfying people who don't wish to make you happy.



    You're an idealist, I see . There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but sometimes in life, tough decisions need to be made, and not all of them will leave everyone happy. As for people who lie, cheat and steal for their own gain; politics is a dirty game, and one where ruthlessness is rewarded. Sort of a "survival of the fittest" thing, since the ones who aren't willing to be ruthless for their own sake might not be able to stomach ruthlessness for another's sake, either. You're better off using people's dirty little games for your own benefit than you are expecting them to change.
    But then it's like where do you draw the line you know? Your letting others change and corrupt you and before you know it the cause that you are fighting for really won't be so good after all as it doesn't have anything left to stand for.
    I think in most cases you should just stand by your principals from the beginning come hell or high water.

  9. #19
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Lord Guess, strawmen to knock down. The process matters.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by amerellis View Post
    But then it's like where do you draw the line you know? Your letting others change and corrupt you and before you know it the cause that you are fighting for really won't be so good after all as it doesn't have anything left to stand for.
    I think in most cases you should just stand by your principals from the beginning come hell or high water.
    If that is your principle, then you haven't lost anything at all. If you have other ideals in place, on the other hand, and you're trying to get in power to realize them, then you cannot shut your eyes from the practicalities necessary to realize your ideals. If you want power for reasons having nothing to do with good or evil, then there will be no problem at all; if you are tied up in the good/evil idea, then spreading good to the maximum number of people is arguably worth getting your hands a little dirty, if the alternative is your ideals fading into obscurity because you were too afraid to act.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor
    Lord Guess, strawmen to knock down. The process matters.
    The process matters if its execution renders the original end moot. If not, however, and there is no alternative, using unsavoury means to prevent a far worse outcome is justified.

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