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  1. #71
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    You're forcing me to have to read up on this. William Schultz, who invented Inclusion/Control/Affection, did not believe in typology, he was an anti-typologist. Is his the system that includes ambiversion? There are no dichotomies and it resists labeling people as being ever-changing.
    Schutz (no "l" in the name) created that structure, and yes, avoided typology, saying it was measuring changeable behavior. Another guy, named Ryan, came along and created a "map" of the score grid, which did give names of the different score ranges (9 for Inclusion and Affection, and a 10th in Control), though still said these were changeable behaviors.
    A couple, named the Arno's, licensed the system, but mapped the four temperaments to it (and discovered "extra space" so to speak, that did not fit in the ancient four, and so became a fifth). Temperament, of course, is apart of an inborn typology.

    In my studies; I've determined that Inclusion corresponds to Interaction Styles (E/I + NP/SF; NJ/ST), and Control is Keirsey's groups. (S + J/P; N + T/F).

    I forget if Schutz or Ryan ever used the terms introvert and extrovert. They might not, since they didn't believe this is really apart of the person. But yes, it is their grid that implies those terms as well as ambiversion, when extended to inborn temperament.
    Since this system is based on a 2D 10x10 grid, scores of 4 or 5 in either dimension are considered moderate. Since low expressed Inclusion (eI) scores correspond to "introverted" temperaments (such as Melancholy), and high eI scores correspond to extroverted temperaments (Sanguine, Choleric), then eI of 4 and 5 is technically ambiverted. In MBTI, they will still have to be either E or I, but they may have difficulty determining which.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  2. #72
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Schutz (no "l" in the name) created that structure, and yes, avoided typology, saying it was measuring changeable behavior. Another guy, named Ryan, came along and created a "map" of the score grid, which did give names of the different score ranges (9 for Inclusion and Affection, and a 10th in Control), though still said these were changeable behaviors.
    A couple, named the Arno's, licensed the system, but mapped the four temperaments to it (and discovered "extra space" so to speak, that did not fit in the ancient four, and so became a fifth). Temperament, of course, is apart of an inborn typology.

    In my studies; I've determined that Inclusion corresponds to Interaction Styles (E/I + NP/SF; NJ/ST), and Control is Keirsey's groups. (S/N + J/P).

    I forget if Schutz or Ryan ever used the terms introvert and extrovert. They might not, since they don't believe this is really apart of the person. But yes, it is their grid that implies those terms as well as ambiversion, when extended to inborn temperament.
    Since this system is based on a 2D 10x10 grid, scores of 4 or 5 in either dimension are considered moderate. Since low expressed Inclusion (eI) scores correspond to "introverted" temperaments (such as Melancholy), and high eI scores correspond to extroverted temperaments (Sanguine, Choleric), then eI of 4 and 5 is technically ambiverted. In MBTI, they will still have to be either E or I, but they may have difficulty determining which.
    The Phlegmatic temperament is the ambiverted type.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #73
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Yes, Phlegmatic is the temperament that scores 4 or 5 in both dimensions. Ambiversion would be the Expressed scale. In the Wanted scale it would correspond to being inbetween in directing and informing or people/task.
    When the score is 4 or 5 in only one dimension, then it is considered a blend of Phlegmatic with one of the other temperaments.
    Here is the table of it: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1029051
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  4. #74
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Yes, Phlegmatic is the temperament that scores 4 or 5 in both dimensions. Ambiversion would be the Expressed scale. In the Wanted scale it would correspond to being inbetween in directing and informing or people/task.
    When the score is 4 or 5 in only one dimension, then it is considered a blend of Phlegmatic with one of the other temperaments.
    Here is the table of it: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1029051
    Ok. But I have this one question: Why do you say that ISTJ corresponds to pure Melancholy at http://www.erictb.info/temperament1s.html ?

    I'm assuming you authored that page.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #75
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    IST introverted (low eI), directive (low wI): Melancholy in Inclusion
    SJ cooperative (low eC), structure focused (low wC): Melancholy in Control

    In fact, Keirsey's correlation of SJ to Melancholic, and Berens' correlation of IST/INJ to Melancholic are not disputed. Names such as "Guardian" or "Stabilizer", and "Contender" or "Chart the Course" reflect common Melancholy traits.

    Hence, each type is a blend of temperaments, and the ISTJ happens to be Melancholy in both areas.
    (Affection is not represented, and thus might indicate some variation, like an ISTJ being more expressive and/or responsive in his deep relationships.
    If the Affection is a different temperament like that, then technically, it wouldn't be a "pure" Melancholy, but for the sake of the type correlation to the other two areas, it is the purest Melancholy).
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  6. #76
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    IST introverted (low eI), directive (low wI): Melancholy in Inclusion
    SJ cooperative (low eC), structure focused (low wC): Melancholy in Control

    In fact, Keirsey's correlation of SJ to Melancholic, and Berens' correlation of IST/INJ to Melancholic are not disputed. Names such as "Guardian" or "Stabilizer", and "Contender" or "Chart the Course" reflect common Melancholy traits.

    Hence, each type is a blend of temperaments, and the ISTJ happens to be Melancholy in both areas.
    (Affection is not represented, and thus might indicate some variation, like an ISTJ being more expressive and/or responsive in his deep relationships.
    If the Affection is a different temperament like that, then technically, it wouldn't be a "pure" Melancholy, but for the sake of the type correlation to the other two areas, it is the purest Melancholy).
    I'm following everything on the page except the type correlations. As an INTP I am not phlegmatic in inclusion. Your own scores on the APS say nothing about phlegmatic.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #77
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    INP can be either Phlegmatic or Supine, and I'm Supine. Again, this is a fifth temperament, and it ends up bundled together with the Phlegmatic. The reason why; Phlegmatic was originally the introverted, people-focused temperament, purely by comparison with the other three. Now, Supine holds that slot, while Phlegmatic is completely moderate.
    Since typology is still based on 4x4 (and not five), the two fall into the same slot. (Theoretically, I would say Phlegmatic could correspond to anything, but from its descriptions, it does seem a closer match to "Behind the Scenes" and "Idealist" types).

    So then what Inclusion temperament do you identify with?
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  8. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    My personal experience with ISFPs is that they do hold back a lot. I haven't met too many who I'd call strong verbal communicators, especially when it comes to their feelings. Most I know in person will reach a point where it comes out in a passive-aggressive manner, via snarky comments or destructive behavior.

    Like any Fi-dom, they may be more open with those they trust in their inner-circle. The theoretical descriptions of Fi describe this reservedness as typical also. Jung describes a person who does not venture to express much of themselves unless it's a BIG DEAL to them, and a big part of this is due to an acute awareness that you feel differently from others & will not be understood. There's also little desire to affect other people with their feelings, whereas with Fe types, they very much want to influence others in order to create consensus and unity.

    Some of the most quiet, reserved, withdrawn people I've known have been ISFPs. I think extroversion/introversion levels in terms of demeanor is an individual matter.

    I think enneagram may play a huge part here too. Many ISFPs are enneagram 9 and they will withdraw & shutdown to cope, avoiding conflict & communicating with others. Profiles tend to be based partly on theory, partly on the writer's own observations. I often see many INFP profiles, for example, read like 9 types, and as a 4 I don't relate as well.

    When it comes to INFP profiles, personalitypage is one of the better ones, IMO. That's the one which made me first consider I may be INFP, since I usually test INTP.
    This has been my experience with the one confirmed ISFP in my life. She holds back a LOT until she's sure she won't offend. She's even more allergic to conflict than I used to be... even more than her INFP son too for that matter.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  9. #79
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    It's not like I have tons to share but hold it all back, I just don't have much to share.

    Not like those introverted intuitives with all their wacky wacky ideas and what not.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

    Quinlan's Creations

  10. #80
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Just that to me, her hehavior online (which is all I know of) resembles ENFP's more. (Remember Little Linguist?)
    OK, scratch that; as I see LL is back, and now she's wearing ESFP too!

    This all might be more evidence for ENFP, as NFP's are said to be the ones who find it hardest to settle on a type. From what I gather, SFP's don't think as much about this stuff. It seems to be more of an N focus that leads people to break the concept down and try different things out.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

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