• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Dario Nardi's Neuroscience of Personality

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Messages
7,626
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
^MBTI isn't science. It's a money-making racket. His sample wasn't tiny because he couldn't find enough volunteers, it's because he had to spend a couple of hours with each person. And too much of that might cut into his "lecture circuit" time.
I wonder how much Google paid him to tell them nothing they didn't already know?

I don't care about science. I brought up money precisely because I view this as entertainment & see his avenue for presenting his "findings" clearly being about earning money (professors don't earn that much, from what I gather; pop culture science books are probably a good side gig). Although, I believe he has a genuine interest in this. I don't think he's looking to cash in off of suckers. It seems like it's a "hobby" for him also. I do see why he couldn't take the time for a hobby, but I don't ascribe sliminess to him.

Perhaps the brain scan would be worth a chunk of change, since it's not something you can have done just anywhere, but for me, a "workshop" is worth not that price. I don't suspect I'd learn anything more than what the books offer, or at least anything interesting enough.
 

Salomé

meh
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
10,527
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Daaaaaaaamn you are cynical.
Yes, I am. I prefer it to being credulous, but it takes all sorts.

I will give you that the one where he talks about the book referenced in this subject's title is a bit of an ad/self promotion, but how else can he talk about something he has done/his own area of expertise without it being that at all? See, I see the expensive lectures as a kind of service... he knows some people might want to pay for it regardless of cost, and he knows he needs money to run tests, so why not give out classes? (even if it's not what he would prefer to do).
First of all, I very much doubt he funds his "research" out of his own pocket or the profit he makes from selling pop-psych books/giving talks/running workshops.

Secondly, I'm not suggesting that he shouldn't make a living by any means he sees fit, I'm simply suggesting that it's difficult to take him seriously as the "neuroscientist" he seems to think he is. (Note, his background is actually systems science, he is a computer geek, not a brain expert.)

(And on a side note, what do you see that kind of reasoning as, the previous sentence?
I'm too polite to answer that. ;)

I don't care about science. I brought up money precisely because I view this as entertainment & see his avenue for presenting his "findings" clearly being about earning money (professors don't earn that much, from what I gather; pop culture science books are probably a good side gig).
Fair enough. My comments were more prompted by yours than a challenge to them. I do believe that the commerciality of MBTI compromises its legitimacy as a psychometric instrument. By which I mean, a lot of people are invested in seeing it as valid, despite evidence to the contrary. And that means the truth has a tendency to be clouded / diluted. FWIW, I think your attitude - that this is entertaining fluff - is the right approach. Which is why I object to Nardi's use of the term "neuroscience" in the book title. In his presentation, he also manages to (awkwardly) plagiarise Levitin, a bona fide neuroscientist - now that's what I call cynical.
Although, I believe he has a genuine interest in this. I don't think he's looking to cash in off of suckers. It seems like it's a "hobby" for him also. I do see why he couldn't take the time for a hobby, but I don't ascribe sliminess to him.
I don't doubt it's a genuine interest, a hobby. I don't accuse him of sliminess so much as shrewdness. As someone who has purchased the "books" he has collaborated on in the past (which turned out to be no more than overpriced, lightweight pamphlets) I have felt pretty duped. It doesn't surprise me that his "workshops" should be similarly overpriced. I can't condemn him for charging what the market will bear - that's capitalism. I don't have to respect him as an authority though, just because he sets himself up as one. After all, what snakeoil salesman doesn't?
 

highlander

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
Messages
26,562
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Secondly, I'm not suggesting that he shouldn't make a living by any means he sees fit, I'm simply suggesting that it's difficult to take him seriously as the "neuroscientist" he seems to think he is. (Note, his background is actually systems science, he is a computer geek, not a brain expert.)

Fair enough. My comments were more prompted by yours than a challenge to them. I do believe that the commerciality of MBTI compromises its legitimacy as a psychometric instrument. By which I mean, a lot of people are invested in seeing it as valid, despite evidence to the contrary. And that means the truth has a tendency to be clouded / diluted. FWIW, I think your attitude - that this is entertaining fluff - is the right approach. Which is why I object to Nardi's use of the term "neuroscience" in the book title.

I don't see individual practitioners - even the top experts- making a lot of money on this stuff. Your point on 'neuroscience' is well taken though.
 

RaptorWizard

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 19, 2012
Messages
5,895
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Below is why I have chosen to be apathetic to Dario Nardi's data (and in the "What is your philosophy on God?" thread, there is indeed a philosophical position on God titled "Apatheism").

This quote of mine was taken from the "Is The Person Above You Accurately Typed thread":

Why should it matter if I think you're accurately typed, especially since 1/3 of the forum tells me I'm ISTP, and I'm too much of a simple-ignorant-narrow-minded sensotard of insane grandiose delusions exploding to epic proportions (see the threads in my signature for reference to the "out-of-touch-with-reality thing") to submit to the forum's judgment and put that in my type-me box?

That would render my opinion incapable for empirical acceptance (but I say screw you empiricism, I'll believe whatever I want to believe, in spite of facts and evidence to the contrary)!

So who really gives a crap what the experiments reveal in regards to brain dynamics and the underlying processes within?

As Michael Jordan says, “You must expect great things of yourself before you can do them.”

You must then indeed expect of yourself that ultimately, no matter what type you were born as, that there are no limitations to the great things that can be wrought into being by the power we hold within, as what we do with the gift (or curse) of life (rather than the roots from which we orgininally sprang into being) shapes all things that are to come within this world.

Ah yes, I finally made a semi-intelligent comment to contribute to the transformation of the ever-evolving structure of this thread (as my earlier "less intelligent" comments did as well).

Let's get this party started!

 

Folderol

New member
Joined
May 16, 2008
Messages
83
MBTI Type
INTP
Yes, I am. I prefer it to being credulous, but it takes all sorts.

First of all, I very much doubt he funds his "research" out of his own pocket or the profit he makes from selling pop-psych books/giving talks/running workshops.

Secondly, I'm not suggesting that he shouldn't make a living by any means he sees fit, I'm simply suggesting that it's difficult to take him seriously as the "neuroscientist" he seems to think he is. (Note, his background is actually systems science, he is a computer geek, not a brain expert.)

Fair enough. I just interpreted what you said earlier as a little too judgmental (and thanks for the specifics). And do you mind if I jump in below with my thoughts on that too?

I do believe that the commerciality (new word to add to firefox dictionary!) of MBTI compromises its legitimacy as a psychometric instrument. By which I mean, a lot of people are invested in seeing it as valid, despite evidence to the contrary. And that means the truth has a tendency to be clouded / diluted.
I have heard this brought up before too. What we really need is a larger community to form around alternate models more, ideally ones that are more modern/cutting edge/new/etc, like I Big 5 aka SLOAN aka OCEAN (seriously just settle on one name!) because I've heard it takes neuroticism into account (I also do think that non perfect types in MBTI should be created to explain mental disorders or natural variance that is going to occur). I like the name SLOAN the best but I have bias since that's how I heard about it first but now I'm getting off topic (Last time I took it I got RLUEI I believe). In an "ideal" world again, we would ALL have knowledge of multiple tests at our disposal to "fill in the gaps" of one type system and provide it with a similar viewpoint from a different prism. I am kind of the theory that it doesn't matter how many flawed systems you have to showcase personality - because if you take them all together, you can probably draw conclusions and find useful information around their flaws, where they meet up. They may not be completely accurate, but that doesn't mean they are completely false either.

I think personality psychology as a whole is a slippery slope in regards to truth and validity. People go into them wanting to know more about themselves and others, and that alone creates a personal connection. I know there are more rational types, but I have a very hard time seeing how when you try to answer from what you truly believe is yourself, you will then disconnect from results. Without going deep into what compromises the soul or who we are at the deepest level, cognition (and therefore) personality, I can imagine being high on that list. So its' kind of like "Yes, I want this test to be accurate, therefore I know myself more and all these positive traits and blah blah". I think a bit of it is subconscious too. And a lot of this has to go back to my original point - myer's briggs is one of the systems with a lot more community around it and this can help boost confidence in the results being more accurate than not.

FWIW, I think your attitude - that this is entertaining fluff - is the right approach.
I saw it that way too. I would say it's a little MORE than "entertaining fluff" though. I mean he goes deeper than just for the sake of pure entertainment with EEG and so on. But I also am my own devil's advocate. Where does entertainment start and stop (same for science). I think regardless of it's categorization it is useful for the fact that it is trying to explore something with something and it has EEG behind it. Primitive science? Amateur science?

As someone who has purchased the "books" he has collaborated on in the past (which turned out to be no more than overpriced, lightweight pamphlets) I have felt pretty duped. It doesn't surprise me that his "workshops" should be similarly overpriced. I can't condemn him for charging what the market will bear - that's capitalism. I don't have to respect him as an authority though, just because he sets himself up as one. After all, what snakeoil salesman doesn't?
That was harsh! But glad you said you have bought his previous books. I was looking into the newest one, have you have that one?

I keep going back to what you said above in the beginning about truth and validity. If we were to embrace better tests, then perhaps research like this would be more scientific and useful.
 

RaptorWizard

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 19, 2012
Messages
5,895
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Out of curiosity, I pulled out Dario Nardi's neuroscience again, and saw a passage on an ENFJ who was 'exploring the philosophical implications for humanity', and I'm like, WTF, if we were to measure man by the state of our planet, we would indeed seem far beyond restoration! How insane do you have to be to even conceive hope is even remotely possible!?

That may have been a bit of an exagoration, but the point remains clear - NFs will shower the truth in rainbows in order to maintain some illusion of optimism.

If you ask me, that's an even greater enemy to truth than ITPs tuning other people out, as those who profess (falsely) to posess knowledge are even further away from illumination than those who are empty of the divine light, yet do nothing to seek (or reject) it, for the former reflect it away, while the latter could potentially be enlightened should they commence their quest for light.
 

Salomé

meh
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
10,527
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I have heard this brought up before too. What we really need is a larger community to form around alternate models more, ideally ones that are more modern/cutting edge/new/etc, like I Big 5
Why would we need that? Popularity is no indicator of quality. Quite the reverse. When ideas take hold in the popular imagination, they tend to get distorted beyond use. (See MBTI for a good example) Misunderstanding compounds misunderstanding until all you are left with is superstition and stereotype. The general public is inclined to degrade anything it gets its hands on till it caters to the lowest common denominator.

Big 5 isn't very appealing to the general public anyway since there's nothing mystical about it. There's also nothing terribly interesting. It's a collection of traits culled from the English language, on the basis that if some trait exists we will have a word for it. Yawn, how dull is that?
Where does entertainment start and stop (same for science). I think regardless of it's categorization it is useful for the fact that it is trying to explore something with something and it has EEG behind it. Primitive science? Amateur science?
Try pseudoscience.
The use of EEG doesn't make this research scientific. It just makes gullible people believe it might be. Hence, snake oil.
That was harsh! But glad you said you have bought his previous books. I was looking into the newest one, have you have that one?
No.

If we were to embrace better tests, then perhaps research like this would be more scientific and useful.
The research would be better if the methodology were more disciplined. I still don't know what it was he was setting out to research. I'm not sure he knows himself. His presentations are all over the place, that's all I can really say.
 

Folderol

New member
Joined
May 16, 2008
Messages
83
MBTI Type
INTP
Why would we need that? Popularity is no indicator of quality. Quite the reverse. When ideas take hold in the popular imagination, they tend to get distorted beyond use. (See MBTI for a good example) Misunderstanding compounds misunderstanding until all you are left with is superstition and stereotype. The general public is inclined to degrade anything it gets its hands on till it caters to the lowest common denominator.
MBTI isn't a perfect system. It's good to compliment your 4 letter type with a perspective from something else. It would be easier for people to be informed when there's larger communities around them like MBTI (you say things become dumbed down as they get popular but the reverse can happen too, and I think it is on the individual - even if something is underground they can still approach it stupidly).

The research would be better if the methodology were more disciplined. I still don't know what it was he was setting out to research. I'm not sure he knows himself. His presentations are all over the place, that's all I can really say.
You're missing the point. In that long video, he said this was v1 of any EEG tests and such. There wasn't really any goal or point to be proven. It was "Lets experiment and see if anything looks to be correlated. Maybe if we can it will be indicative of further studies needing to be done." Exploratory. I could follow the stuff. Then again, I listen to ramblers. You and I seem to be of such different opinions though. I don't care if it's not true science or how much it does/doesn't fit the mold. It's something new. Has EEG ever been tried with MBTI before? It's interesting for that angle alone. I'm not going to call it 100% accurate but I'm not going to call it 0% either. I like it's premise more than the usual books that come out, just describing the functions or describing what each personailty is like (done so many times before).
 

RaptorWizard

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 19, 2012
Messages
5,895
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Being an ISTP Artisan Crafter Analyzer Operator Mechanic Improviser is so awesome and freaking amazing! I get to do what I want whenever I want without heeding stupid and convoluted calls to do what humanity thinks is right by the dang retarded rules. Be a radical rebel! Have guts and daring boldness. Approach all challenges with wild tenacity and a never-look-back attitude. Become who you are meant to be. All negatives will make me rise ever higher! Never give up. Have a firm resolve that never falters. Have fun in life and let your tools strike relentlessly at the right moment. All shall fear my invincible might! Such is the way of the ISTP; such is the way of unprecedented greatness - perfection.
 

Istbkleta

New member
Joined
Jun 11, 2011
Messages
452
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
2
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
You're missing the point. In that long video, he said this was v1 of any EEG tests and such. There wasn't really any goal or point to be proven. It was "Lets experiment and see if anything looks to be correlated. Maybe if we can it will be indicative of further studies needing to be done." Exploratory. I could follow the stuff.

It is interesting as an exploratory topic. This guy seems ENFP to me. Tert Te.
 

Pushbeat

New member
Joined
Dec 29, 2012
Messages
54
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5
Dario Nardi identifies with INTJ (his own words).
 

uumlau

Happy Dancer
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
5,517
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
953
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Since when did that ever qualify with anyone?

He initially struck me as an ENFP type, seeing him on video. However, there is real proof of INTJ-ness out there:
http://www.radiancehouse.com/games.htm
http://www.radiancehouse.com/downloads/PlayersGuide.pdf

These products are typical of an INTJ (building a gaming world from scratch), and not the usual pastime for an ENFP.

I suspect he might have an unusual Enneagram type for an INTJ, assuming he's INTJ. Possibly 7 or 9.
 

Cellmold

Wake, See, Sing, Dance
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
6,266
He initially struck me as an ENFP type, seeing him on video. However, there is real proof of INTJ-ness out there:
http://www.radiancehouse.com/games.htm
http://www.radiancehouse.com/downloads/PlayersGuide.pdf

These products are typical of an INTJ (building a gaming world from scratch), and not the usual pastime for an ENFP.

I suspect he might have an unusual Enneagram type for an INTJ, assuming he's INTJ. Possibly 7 or 9.

Oh yes, there would be evidence. I was just thinking in terms of how people use the theory to pigeon hole people by their own experience, rather than letting descriptions and examples of function stand out on their own merit.

But then again, the functions can be interpreted any number of ways so it can be all up in the air for how individuals view you.
 

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Messages
7,626
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I suspect he might have an unusual Enneagram type for an INTJ, assuming he's INTJ. Possibly 7 or 9.

I thought 7 for him also. He doesn't strike me as ENFP at all, but being 7 might give the vibe of being "less focused". His speech is too "even" to be a Ne type, IMO. Just kind of a softer INTJ. But actually, middle-aged INTJs are more likely to come across that way. Probably better Fi. The ones online who are coldly arrogant & insist on being unfeeling robots always seem to be very young.

And what is that shirt he is wearing? ahahaha... Is he going disco dancing later? So ESFP-wannabe. I bet you he has a "tramp stamp", like a dragon tattoo or something.
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
I thought 7 for him also. He doesn't strike me as ENFP at all, but being 7 might give the vibe of being "less focused". His speech is too "even" to be a Ne type, IMO. Just kind of a softer INTJ. But actually, middle-aged INTJs are more likely to come across that way. Probably better Fi. The ones online who are coldly arrogant & insist on being unfeeling robots always seem to be very young.

Honestly, I think e7 is almost impossible for an INTJ (not to say it necessarily is, but, I mean, just about).

I think one possible explanation is that he's just really developed his shadow -- the guy wrote what is a pretty well-reviewed book on using typology for personal growth and effective leadership, so it's reasonable to think he might have accomplished a good deal of personal development -- and, as such, you guys are seeing e7 because he's using a somewhat ESFPish vibe to communicate when "on stage".

A couple younger-seeming INTJs in his Reddit AMA basically accuse him of being an ESFP, which he mostly ignores, but does respond to once with some explanations as to why and how he might have developed his shadow SFP:

[–]Human_Paladin[INTJ] 8 points 1 month ago
Simple question: What do you identify as? As in type.

[–]AncientSpirits 7 points 1 month ago
I identify with INTJ. I selected this in 1992, at age 22, and have maintained that sense ever since.

[–]Sociacademic[INTJ][] 2 points 1 month ago*
Thanks for doing this!
Would you mind saying more about which parts of the INTJ descriptions you identify with?
I ask because I have watched this clip and this clip with you and I find that you come across very differently from me. Even though I like to think that I make an effort to be more open and friendly than the average INTJ, I'd say you're off the charts in this respect! Also, the way you write doesn't resonate with me. Very often with other INTJs, I feel like I could see myself writing what they've written, but not so with you.
Of course whatever type you are, it doesn't detract from your work. I'm just curious.
Edit: For example, this quote of yours from above:
Having permeable boundaries is important--that is, being present as who you are, assuming you actually wish to be there. Adolescents are perceptive of phoniness and responsive to genuineness. I tell stories about my life and family--not intimidate stories, but ones that reveal I too am a person. (...) I am a secret rebel. That is the source of my smile. Most students are secret rebels, they just don't have a cause yet. You can give it to them....
Sounds to me like Fi > Te in your function stack.

[–]wolfgangpaulig 3 points 1 month ago
Everybody's personality changes when they go up on stage!!! I know this isn't a great source, but it's just one example. And I certainty cannot speak for Dario, but I think pretty much everyone becomes different on stage.
http://www.beyondshynessandsocialan...ty-sufferer-how-he-uses-it-to-to-great-effect

[–]AncientSpirits 3 points 1 month ago
I definitely identify with having a stage self. I'm actually very much at home with other INTJs off-stage. People who know me personally, including other type experts, see the unstaged Dario. That said, it's not fake. It's just a performance. John Beebe would prefer to NTJ-SFP as a spine relationship, and I certainly identify with that. As for boundaries, even though I mention the importance of permeable boundaries, I still maintain an acquire awareness of said boundaries all the time. I'm just aware that many things don't matter, so why not share them to get the desired effect? And like I say elsewhere, I've done quite a bit of NLP, especially in my early 20s. No doubt that, along with part of my upbringing in the Caribbean (an SFP culture), had an impact.

[–]Sociacademic[INTJ][] 3 points 1 month ago*
I've given plenty of presentations, and I'm good at it. I even have myself on video (no, I'm not posting it for comparison, sorry). I don't come across like DN does.
Also, in my comment I mentioned not identifying with his writing. That's a separate issue which you don't address. Do you identify with e.g. the part I quoted in my comment?

[–]wolfgangpaulig 3 points 1 month ago*
Well, I'm an INTP, and I'm new here (not new to Jung or personality type psychology), so, is Fi - introverted feeling, and Te extroverted thinking? I've noticed that the T/F distinction fluctuates pretty drastically within me. Sometimes Fi > Te and vice versa, depends on the situation and my mood. Are they one in the same? If you are Te are you also Fi? I'm definitely not Fe, and I'm new to this community and the terminology. I would call myself a rational idealist, in a very bipolar kind-of way..
INTP is what I associate myself with most often, but it's not who I am on stage for presentations or in my public speaking class. Sometimes I like to work on the aspects of my personality that are lacking, and when I write something or speak, I bring out qualities that might make me seem one way, when internally, it's the opposite of how I really am.
And the more we know about these things, the more we are able to consciously change our appearance for the situation. And I don't think that other INTP's would have the same writing voice as I do, or speaking presentation, even though INTP is the state we are most comfortable in and attracted to.

[–]possibeerlity 3 points 1 month ago*
Nardi has always struck me as an SFP. He comes across fun loving and grounded. Gasp, yes it's possible to be an intelligent and academic focused SFP. Surprise!
Sounds to me like Fi > Te in your function stack.
Yeah. Also INTJ's are probably the most mistyped type, with ISTJ, ISTP's and INFJ's being possibly the most common real type.
What's worse, are those that strongly self-identify with a mistyping and construct a reality around it.
I mean for example (and this goes beyond Nardi), what are the odds that someone that professionally calls themselves type x for a decade, is recognized as somewhat of an authority, would actually admit to being wrong about their own type. Highly unlikely that many people on this earth would posses the intellectual honesty to welcome that.
He could be an INTJ, I guess, but the odds that any self identified INTJ on the internet, is actually one, is actually pretty low IMO.
People naturally find it difficult to grasp the abstract and conceptual nature of Ni dom with Te aux as it plays out.

[–]Sociacademic[INTJ][] 1 point 1 month ago
Hi possibeerlity, I don't know if you saw, but I sent you a message. Please check your messages. :)
permalinkparent


Nardi is "AncientSpirits".

Very ESFP...

:laugh:

And what is that shirt he is wearing? ahahaha... Is he going disco dancing later? So ESFP-wannabe. I bet you he has a "tramp stamp", like a dragon tattoo or something.

Yeah, I've noticed this about his clothes (in the Google video too).

He's clearly tapping into that inferior Se. And it's clearly inferior.

Gotta love that collar stickin out one side...
 

uumlau

Happy Dancer
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
5,517
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
953
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
FWIW, I've had someone identify me as ESFP based on videos (via PM). Visual mannerisms only sort-of correspond to MBTI type. MBTI type also has a lot to do with how one spends the bulk of one's time, not just how one might appear to be in the moment. Don't forget that one of my hobbies is dancing - there are people who are convinced that 1) I am an extrovert, and 2) I do not mind people watching me do what I do.

The caveats? I do not mind people watching me do something excellently.

What was interesting is that the person doing the identifying definitely saw the Ni/Se and Te/Fi, but due to my delivery assumed that Se/Fi was stronger in my personality, when really, it's just my delivery, not my personality.
 
Top