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  1. #61
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFF View Post
    I was typing this up, and then I went to eat dinner. I spent a lot of time putting this together at Starbucks yesterday. It's amazing how similar ESTPs and INTPs are. Nardi says that ESTPs are more geared towards tactical action (he used Mario Kart to simulate this), and I guess INTPs are more inclined to be boring data analysts.

    If there's an error somewhere, let me know.
    One thing to keep in mind is that he published usage per region for an example individual of each type based on data collected during that person's session, not a per-type weighted average. If you look at the 3 ISFPs case study towards the end of the book, you can see that the ISFPs differ on specifics a fair amount. Also, given that he has about 3-6 people of each type, that's not a large enough sample of individual types to generalize too much. His examples are certainly very suggestive, but I think ranking as you've done above is more ranking example individuals, and not ranking types themselves.

    This is especially true given how training and experience seem to shape what regions on you use (and all the more so for SJs).



    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    [...Fi types ignoring the negative...] This sounds so very e9 though....which of course, many ISFPs are. I wonder if this is why ISFPs are more prone to this than INFPs.

    Although the below suggests otherwise, even though its regarding F8 (F8 Grounded Believer: Evaluate people and activities in terms of like or dislike, and/or recall details with high accuracy):
    I didn't personally relate much to that part, either. Although I admit I'm perfectly capable of attempting to ignore contrary information when I don't have time to process. Still, if anything, I tend to fasten on negative feedback and ignore the positive.

    Other studies have claimed a correlation between depression and preferring Fp2 over Fp1, so seems unlikely to me personally that Fp1 vs Fp2 can be entirely about type. When you look at the various things that Fp1 seems to do (deciding quickly, coming up with reasonable sounding explanations, noticing errors, filtering out distractions, and pursuing goals), neither of the IFPs really pop into mind as exemplars.

    So... that's an area where I think more research would be nice since Nardi's results in this instance seem so counterintuitive (at least to me, personally).

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I'm actually surprised that INFPs use this mostly positively. I have to admit I tend to evaluate negatively (as Jung noted Fi is apt to do, or it appears that way, at least).... I see how things DON'T measure up to an ideal & then consider if I can accept its deficiencies. Only if something has potential that is really strikingly close to an ideal can I put on rose-coloured glasses & naively focus on its positives, and really, I see this as Ne tendency to inject positive potential into the unknown.
    I think F8 sometimes fires when judging things that are personally important, not necessarily that things are perfect. For example, Nardi gave the example one musician for whom it fired when he talked bout "my music" and "my guitar." For one SFJ (don't remember the exact type), it seemed to fire when he talked about "being there for friends" and the value he placed on friendship. I would call those positive valuations, even though they aren't evaluating any particular artifact as perfect.

    Although, conversely, Nardi does mention F8 firing when evaluating things based beliefs of what is always good/bad. Unlike T5, F8 is about what is good and bad regardless of social context. It also seem to be a region where non-socially-contextual modesty is based.

    So, anyway... don't have good answers or guesses for this, really. I certainly tend towards perfectionism myself and don't see myself as wearing rose-colored glasses. Still, I feel like I tend to define myself based more what I value and stand for, not what I demonize and stand against. It would have been helpful if Nardi had given some examples of negative F8 valuations he saw more with other types (assuming I didn't just forget that he did so).

  2. #62
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFF View Post
    I was typing this up, and then I went to eat dinner. I spent a lot of time putting this together at Starbucks yesterday. It's amazing how similar ESTPs and INTPs are. Nardi says that ESTPs are more geared towards tactical action (he used Mario Kart to simulate this), and I guess INTPs are more inclined to be boring data analysts.

    If there's an error somewhere, let me know.
    Great job, the data is very interesting.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


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  3. #63
    Fight For Freedom FFF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    One thing to keep in mind is that he published usage per region for an example individual of each type based on data collected during that person's session, not a per-type weighted average. If you look at the 3 ISFPs case study towards the end of the book, you can see that the ISFPs differ on specifics a fair amount. Also, given that he has about 3-6 people of each type, that's not a large enough sample of individual types to generalize too much. His examples are certainly very suggestive, but I think ranking as you've done above is more ranking example individuals, and not ranking types themselves.

    This is especially true given how training and experience seem to shape what regions on you use (and all the more so for SJs).
    I also think that frequency of use may not mean quality of use unless experience is a must for the situation. He also stuck with only the people who didn't question what type they were. There are probably a lot of mixed up in betweeners out there.

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    One thing to keep in mind is that he published usage per region for an example individual of each type based on data collected during that person's session, not a per-type weighted average. If you look at the 3 ISFPs case study towards the end of the book, you can see that the ISFPs differ on specifics a fair amount. Also, given that he has about 3-6 people of each type, that's not a large enough sample of individual types to generalize too much. His examples are certainly very suggestive, but I think ranking as you've done above is more ranking example individuals, and not ranking types themselves.

    This is especially true given how training and experience seem to shape what regions on you use (and all the more so for SJs).
    I think your right because their individual cognitive skill sets that separate people within in the same type

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    If you look at the INTJ vs ISFP, these two EEGs are remarkably similar with only one salient difference: ISFPs are way more "judgey", while INTJs are way more tentative and perceiving. This one difference accounts for how the same pathways appear to be used in very different ways. It's as if the INTJ wants to sit back and use the video card of his mind to work on physics simulations, for example, while the ISFP wants to use his mental video card to play awesome games/videos with great sound and special effects.
    This is awesome (and true) since people often presume the opposite.

  6. #66
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    If you look at the INTJ vs ISFP, these two EEGs are remarkably similar with only one salient difference: ISFPs are way more "judgey", while INTJs are way more tentative and perceiving. This one difference accounts for how the same pathways appear to be used in very different ways. It's as if the INTJ wants to sit back and use the video card of his mind to work on physics simulations, for example, while the ISFP wants to use his mental video card to play awesome games/videos with great sound and special effects.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Very interesting...

    Very a la what @highlander was saying in the thread on judging the other day.
    On the judginess thing and INTJ vs. ISFP - I just elaborated on it here.

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1817518

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  7. #67
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFF View Post
    For Fp1 and Fp2, a table provided in chapter 9 presents the best way to understand them rather than as level 3 (mod. high) and 4 (high). What follows are the types and percentage of Fp1/Fp2. Notice the first four types are the most imbalanced, especially the ISFP.

    ISFP = 68/32
    ENFJ = 63/37
    ENTJ = 63/37
    ISTP = 59/41
    INFP = 52/48
    ESFJ = 52/48
    ESTJ = 52/48
    INTP = 51/49
    INFJ = 49/51
    ENTP= 48/52
    ENFP = 48/52
    INTJ = 48/52
    ESFP = 48/52
    ISTJ = 47/53
    ESTP = 46/54
    ISFJ = 45/55

    Fp1 = this region is active when a person gives an explanation, picks among options, or explains a meaning. This region also acts as a gate keeper to screen out negative information that might distract us emotionally.

    Fp2 = This region is active when a person deals with novel information or when noting he or she has reached a point in a process. This region also admits negative input and mutes our emotional responses so we can reflect on input.
    Maybe this description of each of them would help (from his presentation included included in one of the links above).

    Fp1: Filters out negative information, resulting in lowered self-awareness and also happiness.

    Fp2: Manages negative information about oneself, resulting in self-awareness and also sadness.

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  8. #68
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I think F8 sometimes fires when judging things that are personally important, not necessarily that things are perfect. For example, Nardi gave the example one musician for whom it fired when he talked bout "my music" and "my guitar." For one SFJ (don't remember the exact type), it seemed to fire when he talked about "being there for friends" and the value he placed on friendship. I would call those positive valuations, even though they aren't evaluating any particular artifact as perfect.
    Oh I see..... basically, if the individual finds something unimportant, then they ignore it rather than consider it thoroughly, so that region won't light up when they're disinterested in something (which is anything assigned a negative value).

    Actually, this does bring to mind Jung's description of how Fi glides unheedingly over objects that don't align with its vision, a sort of disinterest in anything not personally valued, which is like a passive, default devaluation of sorts. In simple terms, it seems IFPs can be indifferent to many things, not bothering to form a strong opinion one way or the other, unless something is in an area important to them. This can give the impression of being indecisive or indifferent to others, but then people are surprised to see a strong, passionate opinion come seemingly out of nowhere when it is an issue that matters to the IFP.

    Although, conversely, Nardi does mention F8 firing when evaluating things based beliefs of what is always good/bad. Unlike T5, F8 is about what is good and bad regardless of social context. It also seem to be a region where non-socially-contextual modesty is based.

    So, anyway... don't have good answers or guesses for this, really. I certainly tend towards perfectionism myself and don't see myself as wearing rose-colored glasses. Still, I feel like I tend to define myself based more what I value and stand for, not what I demonize and stand against. It would have been helpful if Nardi had given some examples of negative F8 valuations he saw more with other types (assuming I didn't just forget that he did so).
    I do this as well for moral things or things I stand for in general. I'm not one to put a lot of energy against something I disagree with unless there's some direct violation against me. I'm more apt to support & consider what I do agree with. I can see how TJs are more negative in this respect.

    But when it comes to taste & my identity, sometimes I find it easier to articulate what I don't like or what I am not. This is supposedly common to e4s, to define your identity around negatives, be it negative experiences ("I was outcast as a teen"), things you don't like (ie. "I don't like country music"), or things you aren't ("I'm not outgoing"). I have a harder time articulating my taste & personality in positive terms.

    Okay...I know I'm probably connecting unrelated stuff...I'll stop :P.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Maybe this description of each of them would help (from his presentation included included in one of the links above).

    Fp1: Filters out negative information, resulting in lowered self-awareness and also happiness.

    Fp2: Manages negative information about oneself, resulting in self-awareness and also sadness.
    I really like what this empirical approach brings to the table.

    For a while now, I've been thinking about the types a lot as 8 different groups, with a sliding scale of introversion to extroversion:
    NTJs
    NTPs
    NFJs
    NFPs
    STJs
    STPs
    SFJs
    SFPs

    But what a lot of this stuff is showing is the importance of thinking in terms of Jungian cousins:
    ETJs
    INJs
    ENPs
    ITPs
    EFJs
    IFPs
    ISJs
    ESPs

    Of course, being aware of all of the different ways of slicing the types is what's really important.

  10. #70
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I really like what this empirical approach brings to the table.

    For a while now, I've been thinking about the types a lot as 8 different groups, with a sliding scale of introversion to extroversion:
    NTJs
    NTPs
    NFJs
    NFPs
    STJs
    STPs
    SFJs
    SFPs

    But what a lot of this stuff is showing is the importance of thinking in terms of Jungian cousins:
    ETJs
    INJs
    ENPs
    ITPs
    EFJs
    IFPs
    ISJs
    ESPs

    Of course, being aware of all of the different ways of slicing the types is what's really important.
    Yeah, I'm suspecting (due to several observations, not just the Nardi book) that EXYZ and IXYZ don't really have that much in common. There appears to be much more commonality due to sharing a dominant function or (less obviously) one's tertiary and inferior being the same as another's dom/aux.

    Commonality does not imply, however, "getting along." INTJs and ISFPs might have similar cognitive traits, but the actual priorities held by each would make it difficult to get along in most cases. Their priorities, in fact would be "equal, but opposite".

    Another observation I have about the book and the EEG breakdowns: it feels like finally getting clues about how matter is made up of atoms and an elemental periodic table, instead of fire, earth, air and water. The Aristotelian elements are analogous to typology: you classify what you can observe, because the underlying reality is invisible. But while the Aristotelian model is thoroughly discredited, I should note that even though matter is not made up of four elements, it does occur in four states: plasma (fire), solid (earth), gaseous (air), and liquid (water). Coming up with a more precise description doesn't mean that the original description is without merit - it's just that typologies (like zoologies) are a first step in classifying things with enough clarity that one can even begin to talk about them.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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