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  1. #51
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Default My thoughts on Nardi's book

    I just picked this up and read it. It's extremely interesting.

    The really interesting bit isn't merely how the types map to the EEG regions, but rather how the regions end up mimicking each other in various ways.

    I'll start off with a tantalizing tidbit, which has been the topic of many other threads. INTJs don't think like INTPs, at all, even though they can superficially seem to do so. Instead, they think more like ISFPs or INFJs: very heavily visually-oriented (O1 and O2) and concerned with predicting the future (T6). INTPs instead make heavy use of symbolic logic (T3) and careful classification (T4) of entities.

    So it's as if INTJs are using their GPU instead of their CPU to figure out problems. Even INFJs, with tertiary Ti, don't appear to make much use of T3, and only some use of T4, and rely instead on the O1 and T6 regions most of the time.

    ISTPs, with dom Ti and tert Ni appear to use these areas, too, instead of T3/T4, though not as strongly as the INxJs or ISFPs. They appear to specialize with P3 (tactical navigator) and P4 (strategic gamer), where instead of doing abstract math/logic like an INTP, they're doing fast and accurate real time calculations (in an Se way).

    What type matches most closely to INTP in EEG terms? ESTP. I'm still digesting this one. I suspect the dynamic patterns are different.

    What seems to be clear, though, is that Jung's theory in terms of dominant judging or dominant perceiving is borne out very well in Nardi's work (in spite of its admittedly small sample size). This isn't the MBTI J vs P, it's N and S doms vs T and F doms. This is why INTJ and INFJ look so similar, and ENTPs look like ENFPs, not INTPs.

    If you look at the INTJ vs ISFP, these two EEGs are remarkably similar with only one salient difference: ISFPs are way more "judgey", while INTJs are way more tentative and perceiving. This one difference accounts for how the same pathways appear to be used in very different ways. It's as if the INTJ wants to sit back and use the video card of his mind to work on physics simulations, for example, while the ISFP wants to use his mental video card to play awesome games/videos with great sound and special effects.

    The really encouraging parts of the book are the bits that show that typology doesn't naively correspond to particular areas of the brain. Rather, these same areas are used differently by different types. Instead, it appears that the dynamic patterns have a strong correlation typology: e.g., the blue "zen pattern" of Ni (or Si expressing expertise); the Ne-style "Christmas tree" pattern; the "ping-pong" pattern of Se staying alert and ready; the green dissociation pattern that is common to both Ti types. I believe that these dynamic patterns may be more key w/r to understanding cognitive processes (and how they map to Jungian functions and types) than the aggregate readings that Nardi gives for each location for a type.

    In terms of the eight Jungian functions, I think Nardi ends up providing some of the best descriptions of each in this. This is the best I've ever seen Ni described by an authoritative source. Likewise for Si and Fi. Interestingly, Si isn't rote memorization: it's a preoccupation with the past. Dwelling on the past is what puts Si into that blue zen state.
    Last edited by uumlau; 04-03-2012 at 02:50 PM.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  2. #52
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    Just got back to this thread -- haven't really checked it out in a while.

    Apparently it got a lot of action (somewhat) recently.

    Apologies if there are some worthwhile responses I haven't responded to.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I just picked this up and read it. It's extremely interesting.

    The really interesting bit isn't merely how the types map to the EEG regions, but rather how the regions end up mimicking each other in various ways.


    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I'll start off with a tantalizing tidbit, which has been the topic of many other threads. INTJs don't think like INTPs, at all...
    Ya don't say...



    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    ...even though they can superficially seem to do so.
    God, I don't even know if I consider that to be the case...

    Do people actually consider this to be the case?

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Instead, they think more like ISFPs or INFJs...
    First thoughts:

    - ISFP is same quadra as INTJ in Socionics.
    -- But then why wouldn't ENTJ and ESFP be mentioned as well?
    - Obviously INFJs are Jungian cousins, and we all know how Ni doms are similar in a lot of ways (but then end up being rather dissimilar).
    - So I wonder why the two Ni doms, and ISFPs... interesting to think about...
    -- obviously ISFPs have the same four normal functions as INTJs.
    -- I suppose they're also introverts as well, which, obviously, ENTJs and ESFPs aren't, so perhaps that provides the explanation... same dominant loop, just with Fi as the dom in one, and Ni in the other...

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    : very heavily visually-oriented (O1 and O2) and concerned with predicting the future (T6). INTPs instead make heavy use of symbolic logic (T3) and careful classification (T4) of entities.

    So it's as if INTJs are using their GPU instead of their CPU to figure out problems.
    Not surprising, but very interesting...

    One time, in a conversation with my favorite college professor, we were talking about how our minds work, and I said something about the way in which he seems to use and remember language in very specific ways, and how my brain doesn't seem to work in the same way as his, which I called "linguistically".

    I said that my brain seems to work much more visually, so remembering which specific words are used and yada yada yada is much less part of my brain function, as I'm always thinking in terms of images, almost like I've got a a movie playing in my brain, which I can fast forward, rewind, pause, and play, and words are just a way of trying to express what's going on with those images.

    He looked at me befuddled and was like, "Seriously?"

    Largely because of this, I suspect he is an INTP.

    Definitely a Ti user.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Even INFJs, with tertiary Ti, don't appear to make much use of T3, and only some use of T4, and rely instead on the O1 and T6 regions most of the time.
    Interesting...

    I would love to see how this might change based on different levels of tertiary development, different levels of introversion/(lack of) auxiliary development, and with people who work in fields that might require Ti-based thinking more or less.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    ISTPs, with dom Ti and tert Ni appear to use these areas, too, instead of T3/T4, though not as strongly as the INxJs or ISFPs. They appear to specialize with P3 (tactical navigator) and P4 (strategic gamer), where instead of doing abstract math/logic like an INTP, they're doing fast and accurate real time calculations (in an Se way).
    Interesting...

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    What type matches most closely to INTP in EEG terms? ESTP. I'm still digesting this one. I suspect the dynamic patterns are different.
    Weird.



    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    What seems to be clear, though, is that Jung's theory in terms of dominant judging or dominant perceiving is borne out very well in Nardi's work (in spite of its admittedly small sample size). This isn't the MBTI J vs P, it's N and S doms vs T and F doms. This is why INTJ and INFJ look so similar, and ENTPs look like ENFPs, not INTPs.
    Very interesting...


    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    If you look at the INTJ vs ISFP, these two EEGs are remarkably similar with only one salient difference: ISFPs are way more "judgey", while INTJs are way more tentative and perceiving.
    Very interesting...

    Very a la what @highlander was saying in the thread on judging the other day.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This one difference accounts for how the same pathways appear to be used in very different ways. It's as if the INTJ wants to sit back and use the video card of his mind to work on physics economic simulations, for example, while the ISFP wants to use his mental video card to play awesome games/videos with great sound and special effects.
    Fixed.



    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The really encouraging parts of the book are the bits that show that typology doesn't naively correspond to particular areas of the brain.
    *cough cough*

    Lenore Thomson

    *cough cough*

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Rather, these same areas are used differently by different types. Instead, it appears that the dynamic patterns have a strong correlation typology: e.g., the blue "zen pattern" of Ni (or Si expressing expertise); the Ne-style "Christmas tree" pattern; the "ping-pong" pattern of Se staying alert and read; the green dissociation pattern that is common to both Ti types. I believe that these dynamic patterns may be more key w/r to understanding cognitive processes (and how they map to Jungian functions and types) than the aggregate readings that Nardi gives for each location for a type.
    Yeah, this seems so intuitively obvious to me.

    The way to think of functions is not locations of the brain (although this could be part of it) so much as patterns, the way in which electricity/chi/libido flows through the brain (and, hell, the entire nervous system -- frankly, I think feeling functions, at least Fi, hooks up with nerve plexuses elsewhere in the body, like the chest and gut): that's why I loved his findings of the "christmas tree pattern" and the "zen-like pattern" for Ne and Ni -- love the info about the "ping pong pattern" and "disassociated green pattern".

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    In terms of the eight Jungian functions, I think Nardi ends up providing some of the best descriptions of each in this. This is the best I've every seen Ni described by an authoritative source. Likewise for Si and Fi.
    Good to know.

    I've found his ability to back up our theoretical/intuitive understanding of the functions with pretty concrete empirical observations to be pretty valuable. I've seen enough evidence just from my day-to-day observations to believe that there's definitely something to the functions, but his observations definitely add an extra level of support to that conviction.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Interestingly, Si isn't rote memorization: it's a preoccupation with the past. Dwelling on the past is what puts Si into that blue zen state.
    Yeah, that's not surprising...

    My Dad's an ISTJ.

    He just finished compiling a scrapbook, in chronological order, from January 1st to December 31st, of two years worth of "What happened on this day in history" scraps from the newspaper. To him, this is just about the coolest thing in the entire world. When we talk history, and I'm all handwavey like, "Yeah, so the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor in, what, Decemberish of '43", he gives me a disapproving look and is like, "Z, it was December 7, 1941", and then I'm like, "oh, yeah, so it was D-Day that was Decemberish of '43", and he's like, "that was June of '44", and I'm like, "c'mon dude, that's like 6 months, and you were born by then -- I was practically 40 years away!", and he just shakes his head. I actually like those "What happened on this day in history" things, but the degree to which I do pales in comparison to him. I see it as a "try to understand the evolution of a process" -- whether that process be technological development, political development, economic development, etc. -- that can then be used to try to understand where we are and where we are/should be going. For him, studying the past seems to be almost a religious thing. When he was a kid he used to be all into historical biographies and stuff and was a Son of the American Revolution. Of course, I'm not saying that INTJs, or other non-Si types can't love history; I'm just saying that there's definitely something about the structure of his mind that lends itself to appreciating, and thus being rather adept at, historical study (whether he'd be good at advanced comparative history, or something like that, I don't know, though).

  3. #53

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    I got the book last week and its pretty good
    http://www.nzapt.org.nz/images/2010_...a_NZ_final.pdf
    http://www.keys2cognition.com/papers...lCognition.pdf
    http://www.pdx.edu/sysc/sites/www.pd...ro-systems.pdf
    You guys should read the book

    All Ti types strong use of P4 P3 F3 F4 but each type uses one of these more than the other
    They use all these four at the same time when arguing.
    also F4 is either spatial or wholistically catergories not linguistic
    Last edited by dimane; 04-04-2012 at 08:26 AM.

  4. #54
    Fight For Freedom FFF's Avatar
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    Default Prefrontal Cortex Usage Percents by Type

    For Fp1 and Fp2, a table provided in chapter 9 presents the best way to understand them rather than as level 3 (mod. high) and 4 (high). What follows are the types and percentage of Fp1/Fp2. Notice the first four types are the most imbalanced, especially the ISFP.

    ISFP = 68/32
    ENFJ = 63/37
    ENTJ = 63/37
    ISTP = 59/41
    INFP = 52/48
    ESFJ = 52/48
    ESTJ = 52/48
    INTP = 51/49
    INFJ = 49/51
    ENTP= 48/52
    ENFP = 48/52
    INTJ = 48/52
    ESFP = 48/52
    ISTJ = 47/53
    ESTP = 46/54
    ISFJ = 45/55

    Fp1 = this region is active when a person gives an explanation, picks among options, or explains a meaning. This region also acts as a gate keeper to screen out negative information that might distract us emotionally.

    Fp2 = This region is active when a person deals with novel information or when noting he or she has reached a point in a process. This region also admits negative input and mutes our emotional responses so we can reflect on input.
    Last edited by FFF; 04-03-2012 at 07:28 PM. Reason: add ESTJ

  5. #55
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFF View Post
    For Fp1 and Fp2, a table provided in chapter 9 presents the best way to understand them rather than as level 3 (mod. high) and 4 (high). What follows are the types and percentage of Fp1/Fp2. Notice the first four types are the most imbalanced, especially the ISFP.

    ISFP = 68/32
    ENFJ = 63/37
    ENTJ = 63/37
    ISTP = 59/41
    INFP = 52/48
    ESFJ = 52/48
    ESTJ = 52/48
    INTP = 51/49
    INFJ = 49/51
    ENTP= 48/52
    ENFP = 48/52
    INTJ = 48/52
    ESFP = 48/52
    ISTJ = 47/53
    ESTP = 46/54
    ISFJ = 45/55

    Fp1 = this region is active when a person gives an explanation, picks among options, or explains a meaning. This region also acts as a gate keeper to screen out negative information that might distract us emotionally.

    Fp2 = This region is active when a person deals with novel information or when noting he or she has reached a point in a process. This region also admits negative input and mutes our emotional responses so we can reflect on input.
    You missed the ESTJ case.

    The remarkable thing about this data is how it splits evenly between judging-doms vs perceiving-doms.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  6. #56
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    This is all very, very interesting...



    What exactly do these %s represent? The split between use of Fp1 vs. Fp2, right?

    Is there any data about types that use Fp1 and/or Fp2 more than other types, relative to the rest of the brain?

    I would assume the data would show that we don't all use the prefrontal cortex, as a whole, to the exact same degree...

  7. #57
    Fight For Freedom FFF's Avatar
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    Default Who uses what region the most/least?

    4 = highest and 1 = lowest

    Region F7 Imaginary Mimic
    4: ESFP, ENTP, ENFP, ESFJ
    3: ESTJ, ISTJ, INTJ, INFJ, INFP, INTP
    2: ESTP, ENFJ, ISTP, ISFP
    1: ENTJ, ISFJ

    Region F8 = Grounded Believer
    4: ESFP, ESTJ, ENTJ, INFJ, ISTJ, INFP
    3: ENFP, ISFP, INTP
    2: ENTP, ESFJ, ENFJ, ISTP, INTJ
    1: ESTP, ISFJ

    Region F3 = Deductive Analyst
    4: ESTP, INTP
    3: ESTJ
    2: ESFJ, ISTJ, ISFJ
    1: ESFP, ENTP, ENFP, ENTJ, ENFJ, INTJ, INFJ, ISTP, ISFP, INFP

    Region F4 = Expert Classifier
    4: ESTP, INTP
    3: none
    2: ESFJ, ENTJ, INFJ
    1: ESFP, ENTP, ENFP, ESTJ, ENFJ, INTJ, ISTJ, ISFJ, ISTP, ISFP, INFP

    Region T3 = Precise Speaker
    4: ENTP, ENTJ, ESFJ, ENFJ, INTJ, INFJ, INFP
    3: ESTP, ESTJ, ISFJ, ISFP, ISTP
    2: ESFP, ENFP, ISTJ, INTP
    1: none

    Region T4 = Intuitive Listener
    4: ESFP, ENFP, INFP
    3: ENTP, ENTJ, ENFJ, ISFJ, INTJ, ISFP
    2: ESTP, ESTJ, ISTJ, INFJ, ISTP
    1: ESFJ, INTP

    Region C3 = Factual Storekeeper
    4: ESTJ, INTP
    3: ESFP, ESFJ, ENTJ
    2: ENFJ, ISFJ, INTJ, INFP
    1: ESTP, ENTP, ENFP, ISTJ, INFJ, ISTP, ISFP

    Region C4 = Flowing Artist
    4: ENFJ, ISFJ
    3: ESFP, ENTP
    2: ENTJ, ESFJ, INFJ, INTP, ISFP, INFP
    1: ENFP, ESTJ, ESTP, ISTJ, INTJ, ISTP

    Region T5 = Sensitive Mediator
    4: ESFJ, ENFJ, ISTJ, ISFJ
    3: ENFP, INFJ
    2: ENTP, ESTJ, ISFP, INTJ, ISTP, INFP
    1: ESTP, ESFP, ENTJ, INTP

    Region T6 = Purposeful Futurist
    4: INTJ, ISFP
    3: ENFP, ESFJ, ENFJ, INFJ, ISTP, INFP
    2: ESTP, ESFP, ENTP, ESTJ, ENTJ, ISTJ, ISFJ, INTP
    1: none

    Region P3 = Tactical Navigator
    4: ISTP
    3: ESTP, ISTJ
    2: ESFP, ENFP, ISFJ, ISFP
    1: ENTP, ESTJ, ENTJ, ESFJ, ENFJ, INTJ, INFJ, INTP, INFP

    Region P4 = Strategic Gamer
    4: ESTP, ENTP, ISTP
    3: none
    2: ENFP, ENTJ, ENFJ, INTJ, INTP
    1: ESFP, ESTJ, ESFJ, ISTJ, ISFJ, INFJ, ISFP, INFP

    Region O1 = Visual Engineer
    4: ESTJ, ENTJ, ISTJ, INTJ, INFJ, ISFP
    3: ESFP, ESFJ, ISFJ, ISTP, INTP
    2: ESTP, ENTP, ENFP, INFP
    1: ENFJ

    Region O2 = Astract Impressionist
    4: ENFP, ISFJ, ISTP, ISFP
    3: ESTP, ENTP, ENTJ, ENFJ, ISTJ, INTJ, INFP
    2: ESFP, ESTJ, INFJ
    1: ESFJ, INTP

    I was typing this up, and then I went to eat dinner. I spent a lot of time putting this together at Starbucks yesterday. It's amazing how similar ESTPs and INTPs are. Nardi says that ESTPs are more geared towards tactical action (he used Mario Kart to simulate this), and I guess INTPs are more inclined to be boring data analysts.

    If there's an error somewhere, let me know.

  8. #58
    Fight For Freedom FFF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    This is all very, very interesting...



    What exactly do these %s represent? The split between use of Fp1 vs. Fp2, right?

    Is there any data about types that use Fp1 and/or Fp2 more than other types, relative to the rest of the brain?

    I would assume the data would show that we don't all use the prefrontal cortex, as a whole, to the exact same degree...
    The ISFP's heavy usage of Fp1 and lagging usage of Fp2 suggests they have a hard time facing negative aspects of reality. I believe I knew an ISFP long ago who frequently said, "Let's pretend it never happened, okay?"

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    You missed the ESTJ case.

    The remarkable thing about this data is how it splits evenly between judging-doms vs perceiving-doms.
    Fixed the list.

    Yeah, the EJs and IPs are led by Fp1 and the EPs and IJs are led by Fp2. This chart shows that for most types besides ISFP, ENFJ, ENTJ, and ISTP, the difference isn't that large.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFF View Post
    Yeah, the EJs and IPs are led by Fp1...
    I found it very interesting that, among the EJs, it was the iNtuitives who were more Fp1-heavy, while among the IPs, it was the Sensors who were...

  10. #60
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFF View Post
    The ISFP's heavy usage of Fp1 and lagging usage of Fp2 suggests they have a hard time facing negative aspects of reality. I believe I knew an ISFP long ago who frequently said, "Let's pretend it never happened, okay?"
    This sounds so very e9 though....which of course, many ISFPs are. I wonder if this is why ISFPs are more prone to this than INFPs.

    Although the below suggests otherwise, even though its regarding F8 (F8 Grounded Believer: Evaluate people and activities in terms of like or dislike, and/or recall details with high accuracy):

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour
    A final thing he pointed out was that those types [which] show a lot of activity in F8 seem to use F8 somewhat differently. INFPs seem to use F8 mostly for positive valuations. ISFPs tend to use it for both positive and negative valuations. Most Te-types tend to use it for negative valuations.

    I'm actually surprised that INFPs use this mostly positively. I have to admit I tend to evaluate negatively (as Jung noted Fi is apt to do, or it appears that way, at least).... I see how things DON'T measure up to an ideal & then consider if I can accept its deficiencies. Only if something has potential that is really strikingly close to an ideal can I put on rose-coloured glasses & naively focus on its positives, and really, I see this as Ne tendency to inject positive potential into the unknown.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

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