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  1. #161
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    ^MBTI isn't science. It's a money-making racket. His sample wasn't tiny because he couldn't find enough volunteers, it's because he had to spend a couple of hours with each person. And too much of that might cut into his "lecture circuit" time.
    I wonder how much Google paid him to tell them nothing they didn't already know?
    I don't care about science. I brought up money precisely because I view this as entertainment & see his avenue for presenting his "findings" clearly being about earning money (professors don't earn that much, from what I gather; pop culture science books are probably a good side gig). Although, I believe he has a genuine interest in this. I don't think he's looking to cash in off of suckers. It seems like it's a "hobby" for him also. I do see why he couldn't take the time for a hobby, but I don't ascribe sliminess to him.

    Perhaps the brain scan would be worth a chunk of change, since it's not something you can have done just anywhere, but for me, a "workshop" is worth not that price. I don't suspect I'd learn anything more than what the books offer, or at least anything interesting enough.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  2. #162
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Folderol View Post
    Daaaaaaaamn you are cynical.
    Yes, I am. I prefer it to being credulous, but it takes all sorts.

    I will give you that the one where he talks about the book referenced in this subject's title is a bit of an ad/self promotion, but how else can he talk about something he has done/his own area of expertise without it being that at all? See, I see the expensive lectures as a kind of service... he knows some people might want to pay for it regardless of cost, and he knows he needs money to run tests, so why not give out classes? (even if it's not what he would prefer to do).
    First of all, I very much doubt he funds his "research" out of his own pocket or the profit he makes from selling pop-psych books/giving talks/running workshops.

    Secondly, I'm not suggesting that he shouldn't make a living by any means he sees fit, I'm simply suggesting that it's difficult to take him seriously as the "neuroscientist" he seems to think he is. (Note, his background is actually systems science, he is a computer geek, not a brain expert.)

    (And on a side note, what do you see that kind of reasoning as, the previous sentence?
    I'm too polite to answer that.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I don't care about science. I brought up money precisely because I view this as entertainment & see his avenue for presenting his "findings" clearly being about earning money (professors don't earn that much, from what I gather; pop culture science books are probably a good side gig).
    Fair enough. My comments were more prompted by yours than a challenge to them. I do believe that the commerciality of MBTI compromises its legitimacy as a psychometric instrument. By which I mean, a lot of people are invested in seeing it as valid, despite evidence to the contrary. And that means the truth has a tendency to be clouded / diluted. FWIW, I think your attitude - that this is entertaining fluff - is the right approach. Which is why I object to Nardi's use of the term "neuroscience" in the book title. In his presentation, he also manages to (awkwardly) plagiarise Levitin, a bona fide neuroscientist - now that's what I call cynical.
    Although, I believe he has a genuine interest in this. I don't think he's looking to cash in off of suckers. It seems like it's a "hobby" for him also. I do see why he couldn't take the time for a hobby, but I don't ascribe sliminess to him.
    I don't doubt it's a genuine interest, a hobby. I don't accuse him of sliminess so much as shrewdness. As someone who has purchased the "books" he has collaborated on in the past (which turned out to be no more than overpriced, lightweight pamphlets) I have felt pretty duped. It doesn't surprise me that his "workshops" should be similarly overpriced. I can't condemn him for charging what the market will bear - that's capitalism. I don't have to respect him as an authority though, just because he sets himself up as one. After all, what snakeoil salesman doesn't?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #163
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Secondly, I'm not suggesting that he shouldn't make a living by any means he sees fit, I'm simply suggesting that it's difficult to take him seriously as the "neuroscientist" he seems to think he is. (Note, his background is actually systems science, he is a computer geek, not a brain expert.)

    Fair enough. My comments were more prompted by yours than a challenge to them. I do believe that the commerciality of MBTI compromises its legitimacy as a psychometric instrument. By which I mean, a lot of people are invested in seeing it as valid, despite evidence to the contrary. And that means the truth has a tendency to be clouded / diluted. FWIW, I think your attitude - that this is entertaining fluff - is the right approach. Which is why I object to Nardi's use of the term "neuroscience" in the book title.
    I don't see individual practitioners - even the top experts- making a lot of money on this stuff. Your point on 'neuroscience' is well taken though.

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  4. #164
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    Below is why I have chosen to be apathetic to Dario Nardi's data (and in the "What is your philosophy on God?" thread, there is indeed a philosophical position on God titled "Apatheism").

    This quote of mine was taken from the "Is The Person Above You Accurately Typed thread":

    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    Why should it matter if I think you're accurately typed, especially since 1/3 of the forum tells me I'm ISTP, and I'm too much of a simple-ignorant-narrow-minded sensotard of insane grandiose delusions exploding to epic proportions (see the threads in my signature for reference to the "out-of-touch-with-reality thing") to submit to the forum's judgment and put that in my type-me box?

    That would render my opinion incapable for empirical acceptance (but I say screw you empiricism, I'll believe whatever I want to believe, in spite of facts and evidence to the contrary)!
    So who really gives a crap what the experiments reveal in regards to brain dynamics and the underlying processes within?

    As Michael Jordan says, “You must expect great things of yourself before you can do them.”

    You must then indeed expect of yourself that ultimately, no matter what type you were born as, that there are no limitations to the great things that can be wrought into being by the power we hold within, as what we do with the gift (or curse) of life (rather than the roots from which we orgininally sprang into being) shapes all things that are to come within this world.

    Ah yes, I finally made a semi-intelligent comment to contribute to the transformation of the ever-evolving structure of this thread (as my earlier "less intelligent" comments did as well).

    Let's get this party started!


  5. #165
    Member Folderol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Yes, I am. I prefer it to being credulous, but it takes all sorts.

    First of all, I very much doubt he funds his "research" out of his own pocket or the profit he makes from selling pop-psych books/giving talks/running workshops.

    Secondly, I'm not suggesting that he shouldn't make a living by any means he sees fit, I'm simply suggesting that it's difficult to take him seriously as the "neuroscientist" he seems to think he is. (Note, his background is actually systems science, he is a computer geek, not a brain expert.)
    Fair enough. I just interpreted what you said earlier as a little too judgmental (and thanks for the specifics). And do you mind if I jump in below with my thoughts on that too?

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I do believe that the commerciality (new word to add to firefox dictionary!) of MBTI compromises its legitimacy as a psychometric instrument. By which I mean, a lot of people are invested in seeing it as valid, despite evidence to the contrary. And that means the truth has a tendency to be clouded / diluted.
    I have heard this brought up before too. What we really need is a larger community to form around alternate models more, ideally ones that are more modern/cutting edge/new/etc, like I Big 5 aka SLOAN aka OCEAN (seriously just settle on one name!) because I've heard it takes neuroticism into account (I also do think that non perfect types in MBTI should be created to explain mental disorders or natural variance that is going to occur). I like the name SLOAN the best but I have bias since that's how I heard about it first but now I'm getting off topic (Last time I took it I got RLUEI I believe). In an "ideal" world again, we would ALL have knowledge of multiple tests at our disposal to "fill in the gaps" of one type system and provide it with a similar viewpoint from a different prism. I am kind of the theory that it doesn't matter how many flawed systems you have to showcase personality - because if you take them all together, you can probably draw conclusions and find useful information around their flaws, where they meet up. They may not be completely accurate, but that doesn't mean they are completely false either.

    I think personality psychology as a whole is a slippery slope in regards to truth and validity. People go into them wanting to know more about themselves and others, and that alone creates a personal connection. I know there are more rational types, but I have a very hard time seeing how when you try to answer from what you truly believe is yourself, you will then disconnect from results. Without going deep into what compromises the soul or who we are at the deepest level, cognition (and therefore) personality, I can imagine being high on that list. So its' kind of like "Yes, I want this test to be accurate, therefore I know myself more and all these positive traits and blah blah". I think a bit of it is subconscious too. And a lot of this has to go back to my original point - myer's briggs is one of the systems with a lot more community around it and this can help boost confidence in the results being more accurate than not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    FWIW, I think your attitude - that this is entertaining fluff - is the right approach.
    I saw it that way too. I would say it's a little MORE than "entertaining fluff" though. I mean he goes deeper than just for the sake of pure entertainment with EEG and so on. But I also am my own devil's advocate. Where does entertainment start and stop (same for science). I think regardless of it's categorization it is useful for the fact that it is trying to explore something with something and it has EEG behind it. Primitive science? Amateur science?

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    As someone who has purchased the "books" he has collaborated on in the past (which turned out to be no more than overpriced, lightweight pamphlets) I have felt pretty duped. It doesn't surprise me that his "workshops" should be similarly overpriced. I can't condemn him for charging what the market will bear - that's capitalism. I don't have to respect him as an authority though, just because he sets himself up as one. After all, what snakeoil salesman doesn't?
    That was harsh! But glad you said you have bought his previous books. I was looking into the newest one, have you have that one?

    I keep going back to what you said above in the beginning about truth and validity. If we were to embrace better tests, then perhaps research like this would be more scientific and useful.

  6. #166
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    Out of curiosity, I pulled out Dario Nardi's neuroscience again, and saw a passage on an ENFJ who was 'exploring the philosophical implications for humanity', and I'm like, WTF, if we were to measure man by the state of our planet, we would indeed seem far beyond restoration! How insane do you have to be to even conceive hope is even remotely possible!?

    That may have been a bit of an exagoration, but the point remains clear - NFs will shower the truth in rainbows in order to maintain some illusion of optimism.

    If you ask me, that's an even greater enemy to truth than ITPs tuning other people out, as those who profess (falsely) to posess knowledge are even further away from illumination than those who are empty of the divine light, yet do nothing to seek (or reject) it, for the former reflect it away, while the latter could potentially be enlightened should they commence their quest for light.

  7. #167
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Folderol View Post
    I have heard this brought up before too. What we really need is a larger community to form around alternate models more, ideally ones that are more modern/cutting edge/new/etc, like I Big 5
    Why would we need that? Popularity is no indicator of quality. Quite the reverse. When ideas take hold in the popular imagination, they tend to get distorted beyond use. (See MBTI for a good example) Misunderstanding compounds misunderstanding until all you are left with is superstition and stereotype. The general public is inclined to degrade anything it gets its hands on till it caters to the lowest common denominator.

    Big 5 isn't very appealing to the general public anyway since there's nothing mystical about it. There's also nothing terribly interesting. It's a collection of traits culled from the English language, on the basis that if some trait exists we will have a word for it. Yawn, how dull is that?
    Where does entertainment start and stop (same for science). I think regardless of it's categorization it is useful for the fact that it is trying to explore something with something and it has EEG behind it. Primitive science? Amateur science?
    Try pseudoscience.
    The use of EEG doesn't make this research scientific. It just makes gullible people believe it might be. Hence, snake oil.
    That was harsh! But glad you said you have bought his previous books. I was looking into the newest one, have you have that one?
    No.

    If we were to embrace better tests, then perhaps research like this would be more scientific and useful.
    The research would be better if the methodology were more disciplined. I still don't know what it was he was setting out to research. I'm not sure he knows himself. His presentations are all over the place, that's all I can really say.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #168
    Member Folderol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Why would we need that? Popularity is no indicator of quality. Quite the reverse. When ideas take hold in the popular imagination, they tend to get distorted beyond use. (See MBTI for a good example) Misunderstanding compounds misunderstanding until all you are left with is superstition and stereotype. The general public is inclined to degrade anything it gets its hands on till it caters to the lowest common denominator.
    MBTI isn't a perfect system. It's good to compliment your 4 letter type with a perspective from something else. It would be easier for people to be informed when there's larger communities around them like MBTI (you say things become dumbed down as they get popular but the reverse can happen too, and I think it is on the individual - even if something is underground they can still approach it stupidly).

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    The research would be better if the methodology were more disciplined. I still don't know what it was he was setting out to research. I'm not sure he knows himself. His presentations are all over the place, that's all I can really say.
    You're missing the point. In that long video, he said this was v1 of any EEG tests and such. There wasn't really any goal or point to be proven. It was "Lets experiment and see if anything looks to be correlated. Maybe if we can it will be indicative of further studies needing to be done." Exploratory. I could follow the stuff. Then again, I listen to ramblers. You and I seem to be of such different opinions though. I don't care if it's not true science or how much it does/doesn't fit the mold. It's something new. Has EEG ever been tried with MBTI before? It's interesting for that angle alone. I'm not going to call it 100% accurate but I'm not going to call it 0% either. I like it's premise more than the usual books that come out, just describing the functions or describing what each personailty is like (done so many times before).

  9. #169
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    His ideas seem worth of study. Pity there's no free material on his website, just a sales catalogue.

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    Being an ISTP Artisan Crafter Analyzer Operator Mechanic Improviser is so awesome and freaking amazing! I get to do what I want whenever I want without heeding stupid and convoluted calls to do what humanity thinks is right by the dang retarded rules. Be a radical rebel! Have guts and daring boldness. Approach all challenges with wild tenacity and a never-look-back attitude. Become who you are meant to be. All negatives will make me rise ever higher! Never give up. Have a firm resolve that never falters. Have fun in life and let your tools strike relentlessly at the right moment. All shall fear my invincible might! Such is the way of the ISTP; such is the way of unprecedented greatness - perfection.

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