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  1. #131
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I'm not sure if he just really dumbs everything down (for a wider audience) or if he's just really dumb. Having read some of his academic papers and the "books" he has co-authored, I lean towards the latter interpretation.
    I have mixed feelings on Nardi's work. IMO, some of the earlier workbooks with his name on them seemed overly basic, dumbed down, etc. I liked 8 Keys to Self Leadership (videos and book). Neuroscience of Personality was interesting for the ideas it put forth. I don't particularly like his cognitive function test.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    ( I think the main criticism here is that the number of subjects (3-4) is simply too small to draw general conclusions. )
    If there is one criticism I can make of all of his "research", it is this one thing. I don't know why he hasn't increased the sample sizes. It seriously detracts from the credibility in my mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Ive always thought Fe was the lying function myself.
    Made me lol. They're only little white lies though .

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This should give a clue as to what is really being discussed. Note that INTPs are "definition nazis", while INTJs are "grammar nazis". INTPs care about the "atomic" meaning of a word, i.e., a word should mean one thing, and only that one thing, and if the meaning is vague it should be specified. INTJs and INFJs instead care about the meaning of a sentence, how the words "dynamically" relate to each other.
    This captures it pretty well.

    I spend a lot of time reading what other people write and making sure that it’s solid prior to giving it to clients - probably 300 - 500 documents a year. I would not say I’m a grammar Nazi though poor grammar and spelling most certainly annoy me. I’m more focused on quality of the whole thing. It is not only the meaning of the sentence but all that’s being written. Are the thoughts, observations, etc. expressed clearly? Is it written in such a manner that the audience will understand it? Does it communicate anything meaningful? Is it cohesive? Is it concise? When I write things myself, I can spend a fair bit of time writing and rewriting in an effort to be clear and to communicate what I wish to communicate. When people are sloppy, it kind of sets me off because it is obvious they have invested little in the quality of what they are producing. In those cases, I have a tendency to rip what they wrote to shreds.


    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    i agree with the definition and grammar nazi thing, but not with the other stuff. or well, it is true that INXJs care more about the meaning of sentence, than single words. BUT the single words make up the sentence, so in order to construct whole sentence with proper meaning, you need the precision of words and because of that, your example is simply wrong and is more about how INTPs do it not how INTJs do it. INTJ way would be more like "he drove car" or other not well defined sentences that make sense in the context of things, but much is left for assumptions and stuff like "i didnt say other people also drove the car, so it didnt happen". i have noticed that listening to INTJs is(to me at least) a constant decrypting of what the heck is he trying to say, both single words are often replaced with some other words that doesent really fit there, but can be associated to what they meant to say(and sometimes being really misleading), the whole sentence is missing words that should be there for clarity etc.
    As an INTJ, I work hard to communicate what I am thinking in a clear way – in writing in particular. Precision in words is important in conveying meaning - exactly as you state. Verbal communication is harder because I don’t have the time to articulate things in as clear as a manner as I'd prefer. I often struggle to find the right word. It happened to me just a few minutes ago. The word I was searching for in this case was “juxtaposition”. It was essential to the core point I was trying to make. So, words do mean something to the INTJ. The difference I think is that INTPs sometimes get hung up on a particular definition of a particular word, which comes across to the INTJ as nitpicking and a failing to appreciate the the big picture. What you describe as difficulty in comprehending what the INTJ is trying to say is understandable because it is something that we can take years to develop. Context shifting has a downside because others don’t always follow what you are saying. Watching a conversation between an ESTJ and an INTJ is a perfect illustration of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    It's an observation, not an argument. You made a category error.
    Your calling it a "category error" is the exact type of definitional conflict between INTJs and INTPs that I raised earlier.

    You made a judgment of another person based on your subjective personal views. It's a broad sweeping generalization. It's not an observation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    The guy can't even draw sound conclusions from his own data. He's a rank amateur.
    Just like this is.

    The problem is that you are criticizing for a failure to use reason and logic and yet arrive at conclusions that seem to be biased, subjective, broad sweeping generalizations that don’t appear to be based on sound reasoning and logic. It’s not intended to be an insult. I’m having difficulty understanding how you reach what appear to be such black and white conclusions.

    Edit: Reflecting on what bothers me here. I find much of your commentary interesting. It makes me think. However at the end of the day - are the conclusions right or wrong? Are they fair and balanced? It's something I'm sensitive to.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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  2. #132
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    If there is one criticism I can make of all of his "research", it is this one thing. I don't know why he hasn't increased the sample sizes. It seriously detracts from the credibility in my mind.
    He did talk about this at his workshop, and his main problem was having to do things on a shoestring budget. He did his research as a "training lab," in order to get it done at all. Since he didn't know in advance what kind of patterns he was looking for, he needed to do something broad data collection and observation, rather than a very targeted, strict protocol. That meant his initial research wasn't a good fit for grant, or the kind of work that would be appropriate for a peer-reviewed journal. He hoped that his work will lead to more targeted studies. Also, he spent 2-3 hours with each subject, and needed his only EEG machine, extra observers, as well as people to interact with his subjects (so he could get data about EEG activity during social interactions).

    And even while there are frustratingly few people per type, there were enough to show statistically significant correlations between type and brain-region usage. It may not have the resolution we'd like, but does look like there's a there there.

    I do agree that the small sample sizes are a major limiting factor. Also, the fact that only college students were involved is a limitation as well (doesn't say much about the brains of other age groups). As someone who is *ahem* well post-college, I'd be interested to compare how things change in older subjects.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    You made a judgment of another person based on your subjective personal views. It's a broad sweeping generalization.
    I agree with you there. I find it puzzling, because I think Salomé has interesting insights, but there seems to be a whole lot of unacknowledged bias there (not that we aren't all biased, one way or the other).

  3. #133
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    *does a double-check on your type*

    Ti dom, yep.

    Color me shocked! An INTP disregarding data? Never!

    Shouldn't it tickle your brain to dig deeper?
    If that's your assessment of my critique, maybe you need to dig deeper. The study is piss-poor and the presentation is full of errors. It's sloppy and unscientific, yet masquerades as serious research. I'm actually very disappointed that more effort didn't go into study design, the collection of meaningful volumes of data, and the publication of a peer-reviewed paper. Nardi himself confesses to his failings in this regard. Of course, it should surprise no one that MBTI doesn't attract serious research.

    INTP expressed similar reservations. Given your lame, invalid assessment of our type's short-comings, it's ironic that we are the people paying proper attention to data quality.

    But then, it's not like an INFP to allow facts to get in the way of personal prejudice.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    When people are sloppy, it kind of sets me off because it is obvious they have invested little in the quality of what they are producing. In those cases, I have a tendency to rip what they wrote to shreds.
    Well, I guess we have something in common.

    Your calling it a "category error" is the exact type of definitional conflict between INTJs and INTPs that I raised earlier.
    Duh.

    You made a judgment of another person based on your subjective personal views.
    Everyone does this. All the time. Every day. Usually based on less than the information I have available. Welcome to humanity.
    How do you think you make your judgments about people....me, for example?
    /rhetorical

    In any event, I am using my judgment to evaluate "Nardi the self-professed expert", not Nardi, the man. I didn't NOT read the presentations or NOT watch the video because Nardi has thus far failed to impress. But when I have to decide where to invest my finite resources, um...yes, I'd suggest it's entirely logical and sensible to form an impression as to whether someone is credible and worth investing in, or not. It's called being discriminating. And it's a hallmark of critical thinking.

    You've agreed with much of what I've said, so you do exactly the same thing, you just don't express your opinions in the same way.

    In any event, your knuckle-rapping is fucking tiresome. Cut it out. I can form judgments in any way I see fit and it's none of your business. Your popping into threads to pass judgment on me (for passing judgment) is odious, patronising, hypocritical and utterly uneccessary. This is what makes you guys such a PITA. It derails the thread, lowers the tone, and affects the participation of others who might actually have something on-topic / worthwhile to say. It's also an abuse of your position as a mod. (If you don't understand why, I'd be happy to explain it to you, in private.) I don't know if you even get how inflammatory it is. In your case, I doubt it.
    In Nardi's defence, I was genuinely surprised to learn he self-typed as INTJ, because he's really very personable and modest.

    It's not an observation.
    The "category error", was calling my critique an "argument". It wasn't an argument.
    My "observation" related to INTJs, (and was consistent with research findings) which is what I assumed you were reacting to (if you weren't, you shouldn't have included it in your quote.) Truth be told, that's what got under both your's and umlau's skin. And you've both demonstrated the truth of that observation, yet again.

    God. Arguing with INTJs is unutterably dull. I wish you guys would leave me the fuck alone.
    I’m having difficulty understanding how you reach what appear to be such black and white conclusions.
    Consider that it's none of your business how I decide who is worth my time and who isn't? I told you already: I'm not trying to persuade anyone. If you feel like joining Nardi's fanclub, knock yourself out.

    I'm sorry to put it so bluntly but trust me when I say that your arrogance and patronising attempts to "correct" my thinking are AT LEAST as irritating to me as I am to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #134
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    God. Arguing with INTJs is unutterably dull.
    really?
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  5. #135
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    God. Arguing with INTJs is unutterably dull.
    You could argue with me. I dont do logic, I make inconsistant and contradictory statments and I also have a lifetime membership to Adhominemsor's.

    Oh we could have so much fun.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  6. #136
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    You could argue with me. I dont do logic, I make inconsistant and contradictory statments and I also have a lifetime membership to Adhominemsor's.

    Oh we could have so much fun.
    You'd have to say something I disagree with first...

    :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #137
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Given your lame, invalid assessment of our type's short-comings, it's ironic that we are the people paying proper attention to data quality.
    I wasn't being serious, I was trying to be tongue-in-cheek - joke fail on my part.

    I do think there's enough in there to spark further examination, do you not agree?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  8. #138
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    You'd have to say something I disagree with first...

    :P
    Dario Nardi is clearly the most brilliant and insightful individual to ever lift the lack of clarity on typology since it's creation.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  9. #139
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Dario Nardi is clearly the most brilliant and insightful individual to ever lift the lack of clarity on typology since it's creation.
    what do you base this opinion on?
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  10. #140
    Anew Leaf
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    Maybe this has already been said and I missed it. But I think it would be interesting to do a larger scale experiment with more people... and see if you can identify the person's type based on their brain scans.

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