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Keirsey: Fairy Tale for the Masses

Not_Me

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So you mean there's a reason NOT to hate him? That maybe Keirsey had a kind of heuristic in mind accompanying those descriptions?
I don't hate him. He provides another way to look at things. I don't consider personality theory to be a hard science. But it has sufficient predictive ability to be useful.
 
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It's fun. It can help me a little bit when it comes to gaining insight into other people's minds. Or somewhat when approaching them.

I agree. The real purpose of things like the MBTI is to help people gain an understanding about the significant differences between people. This is most useful to managers as they try to address people in terms they can understand.

I haven't seen where the career advice aspects of the MBTI is helpful to the individual so much as to, again, managers who try to place people where they will provide the most productivity.

It has certainly helped me to understand how others interact at work and to see very quickly when someone is a bad fit for a job they hold and why that's likely the case.

I can see people's type and can be helpful in guiding them towards something at work that they might better enjoy and excel at. (And I'm not even a manager.)
 

Viridian

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What I see from most other MBTI authors that differs from Keirsey is that they use behavioral descriptions to illustrate a mindset. They do not use behaviors themselves as ways of categorizing people's personalities.

What Keirsey describes, IMO, is social roles. There is a vague connection between social roles & psychological types, but he blows it out of proportion, so that they do become cartoonish stereotypes.

I wrote this in my blog some time ago:

+1000000

Well said, OA. :yes:
 

Eric B

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Yeah well that PTypes ISFP description fits me PERFECTLY. And I was Hedonist almost double what I was Idealist.
Those just seem to be some rather broad descriptions. They might fit an ISFP, but I can see other types fitting in with them as well. (Like ISTJ's are very artistic, etc). So I wouldn't go squarely on this either.

How about this one? http://www.bestfittype.com/isfp.html

Plus, when I do that Ni/Ne test that Vicki Jo has, I come up as Ni.
What test is that? I don't remember ever seeing a test by her, or is it just a page comparing the two functions and asking which you relate to better?

You have to be really careful with her, because she says stuff like Fe types don't really know what they want from Santa because that's Fi. So she tends to push a lot of people with uncertainty towards NFP, while a few I have seen who really are ENFP she'll make some Ni using type.
 

Such Irony

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I like Keirsey for its simplicity and I dislike it for the same reason.
 

Thalassa

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Those just seem to be some rather broad descriptions.

:thelook:

ISTJs are uninhibited, impulsive, have wild mood swings, love nature, and show a clear ambivertedness between I and E as well as being artistic? They place a lot of importance on bravery and/or approaching life as an adventure, as well as kindness, sensitivity, and creative accomplishment?

No, I really don't think so. That doesn't sound ISTJ to me. Yes, I think you could potentially fit other types into it somewhat - especially other FPs - but not completely.

As for Best Fit, that ENFP description sounds almost supernatural, and reminds me of someone like Vala Faye or Peacebaby, not me. The SFP descriptions fit me better, a little of ESFP and a little of ISFP.
 

Eric B

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I didn't say ISTJ's were all of those things. Just the artistic part. And other types can fit some of the other things.

OK, for the best fit type. VJ and her friends once pointed me towards that one (as the best set or profiles), and I still found the ENFP to be too "Sanguine" to be me, which is what I tended to notice about ENFP profiles, though I'll have to look again to see what you mean by 'supernatural'. She even had suggested that most other ENFP profiles were "contaminated" by ESFP.
 

Antimony

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I also enjoy seeing what makes other people different, what makes them tick. It is nice that fruitiness has its own letter: N.
 

Thalassa

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I didn't say ISTJ's were all of those things. Just the artistic part. And other types can fit some of the other things.

OK, for the best fit type. VJ and her friends once pointed me towards that one (as the best set or profiles), and I still found the ENFP to be too "Sanguine" to be me, which is what I tended to notice about ENFP profiles, though I'll have to look again to see what you mean by 'supernatural'. She even had suggested that most other ENFP profiles were "contaminated" by ESFP.

ENFP on that profile basically goes again by the Keirsey Idealist definition that they are all mediating social worker types (which is wonderful, I'm just not a very good mediator and I can often be less than diplomatic, though I'm quite sweet when I'm not upset) and suggests that ENFPs can see through strangers, which I cannot. My ESFJ ex said I could see through him and tell when he was lying, but that's certainly not the same thing as seeing some little boy's soul, or going around telling each and every stranger what is special about them and being uber-understanding (again, which is great, a wonderful talent, it's just not quite me).

I'm more about freedom like the ESFP profile emphasizes, a little more earthy, and more into bonding/connecting and "one-up-manship" and a little competition in conversation, while I'm too sensitive to take strong personal attacks like in the ISFP profile.

Black Cat said he found Best Fit to be a good resource when he was deciding between INFP and ISFP. Of course, Black Cat is a 9, so I'm not going to be exactly like him, either.

I really like the PTypes ISFP description, and it's just a fact that I fit Hedonist better than Idealist, and even fit Keirsey's Artisans slightly better than his Idealists.

I remember a long, long time ago (like when I very first got into personality types) I took the PTypes test - just the temperaments, I didn't know how they linked to the individual types at that point so I hadn't read them - and I got Hedonist and I was, like, embarrassed? Because I just took it like it was saying that I was some kind of bad person who didn't think of anyone but my own good time or something lol....now I understand that Hedonist just means Artisan or SP, and that it isn't some moral judgement on me. Now I'm totally fine with it and it makes sense to me.

The main thing I relate to about ENFP descriptions is the standing up for what I believe in, like how I am about protecting my loved ones or defending my political views. But apparently according to this PTypes description of the Exuberant type, they take pride in not being afraid to stand up for what they believe in, too.

Anyway, on Best Fit SFP sounds most like me, on PTypes ISFP sounds most like me, and in Keirsey while I relate to some of ENFP, ESFP and ISFP, I fit the Artisan temperament in terms of highest form of intelligence, where I get my self-respect, and career choices or whatever better than Idealist, which is ultimately the primary point of Keirsey...skills and job placement.
 

Thalassa

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I also enjoy seeing what makes other people different, what makes them tick. It is nice that fruitiness has its own letter: N.

Not so. Apparently those with tertiary/inferior Ni are highly likely to believe in things like chakras, karma, and telepathy..so Se types can fit in as "fruity" as well. Which is very interesting to me, because frankly this is one of the early reasons why I thought I was an N...I was so much into this psychic shop/ghosts type of stuff as a teenager; and even now I'm into Eastern philosophy much more than Western.
 

Antimony

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Not so. Apparently those with tertiary/inferior Ni are highly likely to believe in things like chakras, karma, and telepathy..so Se types can fit in as "fruity" as well.

I was mostly kidding when I said that. But Se types? How interesting.
 

Thalassa

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I was mostly kidding when I said that. But Se types? How interesting.

Yeah, I didn't get that at first at all, but apparently this is how Ni can manifest in people who don't have Ni as a dom/aux. Apparently people with Ni inferior can also believe in conspiracy theories, think people are out to get them, et al.

I dunno, though. I personally kind of take offense to the suggestion that believing in psi phenomenon is a "childish" usage of Ni...but that's where this conclusion comes from.
 

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No, people won't fall exactly in one particular type, but there have been other theorists who are somewhat similar to Keirsey who have managed to control themselves from making obtuse statements like ISTJs wear homespun clothing. And Please Understand Me II was updated in the 90's...it wasn't written in the 1950's when many working class people actually did wear home made clothes, still. Give me a break. And you people wonder why someone born in 1987 might look at that and be like "WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS SHIT."

There's another definition of "homespun":

Simple and homely; unpretentious

Which, when I think of the ISTJs I know... is kinda true.
 

onemoretime

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I find this thread odd, in that it seems somewhat judgmental of Keirsey for being a fairy tale, when the central insight of Jungian psychology, after all, is that we conceive of the world in fairy-tale terms, for lack of a better description of archetypes. Personality, according to Jung, is less about who we are and more about how we unconsciously play our roles in the narrative we conceive of as life.
 

Thalassa

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There's another definition of "homespun":



Which, when I think of the ISTJs I know... is kinda true.

Errr...well my grandfather owned multiple pairs of the same tan pants, and I know a young ISTJ who likes to wear black a lot and has multiple pairs of the same designer jeans...but they both also paid/pay attention to their appearance...so maybe understated, but not homely. Both actually very well groomed, the kind of men who wear cologne and that sort of thing.
 

MacGuffin

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Errr...well my grandfather owned multiple pairs of the same tan pants, and I know a young ISTJ who likes to wear black a lot and has multiple pairs of the same designer jeans...but they both also paid/pay attention to their appearance...so maybe understated, but not homely. Both actually very well groomed, the kind of men who wear cologne and that sort of thing.

Yeah, but not very flashy either. That's what I thought he was trying to get at with "homespun". Bad word choice if that's correct.
 

Thalassa

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Yeah, but not very flashy either. That's what I thought he was trying to get at with "homespun". Bad word choice if that's correct.

My grandfather was pretty vain for someone so conservative. I mean he could run around in his tan pants and v-necked white tee shirt at home, but if he left the house he was all groomed, more than some men. He took a brush to his nails and softened his face with warm washcloths before shaving, and put moisturizer on his face and Vitalis on his hair. But yeah...his clothes were very conservative and I guess boring, except for his suits, which were still conservative, and his ties were conservative.

The younger guy does different things with his hair and is also kinda vain, even if he also dresses in an ISTJ way...he said he related to my description of my grandfather and his multiple tan pants, and two of the exact same pair of boots in black and brown, lol.
 

lunalum

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Hey I just found this on another site, and I think this is a really, really good alternative that is similar to Keirsey. It takes Keirsey's ideas but remains more general that trying to be too stereotypical and specific.

PTypes

I found the Exuberant type a very good fit for me, after I scored highest in the Hedonist temperament (second highest in Idealist).

:nice: This is a pretty cool alternative. I'm 12 rationalist and 12 hedonist (3 for the other two). And I can relate quite a bit to some of the hedonist types. But overall I'm the most like Inventive (not perfectly though, it leans heavily towards someone a little more 3w4). It tones down some of the more high-E biased stuff and actually regards the type as more Phlegmatic than Sanguine or Choleric. There's more of an artsy/cultured flavor and interestlingly enough regards the type as being highly sensitive to criticism (I tend to switch between this and being very unsensitive). I am closer to the some of the Hedonistic types than to the Solitary, Vigilant, or Dramatic type (correlated to INTP, ENFP and INFP).


So it's a mixed bag. I really feel that function theory is ultimately better, though. I would hate, for example, to test xNFP on some public career exam and be "placed" in a career like personnel or similar. I'm less diplomatic and non-confrontational than one would hope, no matter my consistent dichotomy scoring. If I had to be placed anywhere I'd rather be placed in the SFP professions (which is what Keirsey ultimately is: a career sorter).

Of course it's function theory ftw :D And function theory as in the 8 original types, distinguished by a sort of character and "worldview," not some of this stuff cropping up about functions being "used," doing things, and being defined by strength or ability. I think that kind of stuff when taken to extremes and stereotypes can be even worse than than the Keirsey-based stereotyping ("How'd you miss that rock on the sidewalk? LOL Se fail!" "Where are your thousands of possibilities now, Mr. Ne user?")

It seems almost forgotten that a big part of this personality sorting in the first place is to help find the best-fitting careers. And it works pretty well with that.... at least tons more than those career quizzes where I enter "I am NOT good with details" and "I DO NOT want to be in a position of law and authority" and it gives me accountant and police officer as top two career choices :tongue:

Not so. Apparently those with tertiary/inferior Ni are highly likely to believe in things like chakras, karma, and telepathy..so Se types can fit in as "fruity" as well. Which is very interesting to me, because frankly this is one of the early reasons why I thought I was an N...I was so much into this psychic shop/ghosts type of stuff as a teenager; and even now I'm into Eastern philosophy much more than Western.

Very initially I thought I was an S for pretty much the same reason. I thought N was more about being all deep and mysterious and psychic. So maybe there are also a few ENxPs out there who mistype themselves as S.....

I dunno, though. I personally kind of take offense to the suggestion that believing in psi phenomenon is a "childish" usage of Ni...but that's where this conclusion comes from.

"Childish" is probably the wrong word (I can see how you might read offense into that). It is more like tertiary and inferior perspectives are not as well integrated, so they are more raw, sometimes ultilitarian, and sometimes for play/experimentation. For dom/aux, it is more "mature" in that it has been worked with extensively for a long time, it's more of who they are than something focused at a particular activity.
 
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