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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    I'm a bit of an outlier here in that I don't see any actual validity in "cognitive function" theory -- I actually consider Keirsey more useful, but it's certainly not because it's at all scientific (it's not). It's *because* it doesn't try to link a conceptualization of personality type to some sort of fuzzy set of predictive or causative factors. At its base, to me it's always been about "some people prefer some ways of thinking/being/living, and others prefer different ones". It's simply a framework for displaying differences between people, a simplistic tool for stepping out of one's own preferences and seeing the world in someone else's view. Any time someone tries to say something like "you're an XXXX, so you must like YYYY" -- the bounds of usefulness of the model has been exceeded, imho. But that's not what it's for, and what it does do has use.

    Obviously it's full of stereotypes. It wouldn't be far off the mark to say that it's nothing *but* stereotypes -- but that's okay as long as you don't try to shoehorn actual people into hard-and-fast classifications and think that means something. The human mind is a fantastically complex and variant thing. No simple model is going to be consistently predictive (and wouldn't that be boring?). But as a way to compare and contrast yourself with others, at a very basic level, sure, it's useful.

    But it is what it is, and isn't what it isn't. Most people don't fall 100% into a single "type". Most people will say "this type fits me best" -- some people won't find a good fit with any type, but will see bits and pieces of themselves in several. Some others don't identify with any. It is good at giving people somewhere to start when discussing differences between the ways they think and what's important to them, though. That's a good thing, I think.
    No, people won't fall exactly in one particular type, but there have been other theorists who are somewhat similar to Keirsey who have managed to control themselves from making obtuse statements like ISTJs wear homespun clothing. And Please Understand Me II was updated in the 90's...it wasn't written in the 1950's when many working class people actually did wear home made clothes, still. Give me a break. And you people wonder why someone born in 1987 might look at that and be like "WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS SHIT."

  2. #12
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I'm not just being any way. I'm expressing my real opinion of Keirsey and giving a valid criticism of why I think so.

    I merely expressed surprise that INTx would embrace something like this since they think of themselves (in Keirsey terms) of being oh so intellectually discerning.
    But how they think of themselves is not necessarily how they really are.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    But how they think of themselves is not necessarily how they really are.
    This is a very good point.

    Like I said, the best thing I got from Keirsey was ...wow...I don't relate to these NF temperament descriptions as much as I thought I would. I was surprised at how much more I related to SP, wasn't really expecting that at all.

    But then it made sense in my mind comparing myself to some of the NF women on this site and elsewhere. Like..yeah...I know NFs who ARE like this.

    Why am I the outlying freak?

    Is it because I actually have Se?

    So in that sense it was good for me. Also, the entertainment value cannot be denied...I love fiction and folk tales and archetypal stuff which is why I loved astrology when I was a teenager.

    I simply cannot take this seriously. It upsets me people run around the Intertardz making fun of sensors when some of them are sensors themselves and won't see it because of the stereotypes, or when people presume that all SJ women see sex as some kind of dirty duty.

    It gets old...especially when Please Understand Me II was supposed to lead to UNDERSTANDING OF OTHERS, not further alienation and bullshit.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    This is a very good point.

    Like I said, the best thing I got from Keirsey was ...wow...I don't relate to these NF temperament descriptions as much as I thought I would. I was surprised at how much more I related to SP, wasn't really expecting that at all.
    Keisey's good for some things, when you described his SJ type it lit up a light bulb over my head about somebody I know. I just don't want to get sucked up in his particular brand of drivel.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    Keisey's good for some things, when you described his SJ type it lit up a light bulb over my head about somebody I know. I just don't want to get sucked up in his particular brand of drivel.
    Oh this particular brand of drivel...like making critical arguments about why Keirsey's theory might not hold up as well as some other personality theorists. That's drivel?

    Dude, you post pictures of what Se and Si look like in your mind, but you can't argue about Keirsey? Why's that? Not that I care, because you're not an especially sensible person to argue with about personality theory.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Oh this particular brand of drivel...like making critical arguments about why Keirsey's theory might not hold up as well as some other personality theorists. That's drivel?

    Dude, you post pictures of what Se and Si look like in your mind, but you can't argue about Keirsey? Why's that? Not that I care, because you're not an especially sensible person to argue with about personality theory.
    No, his drivel isn't worth my time discussing. I'm sure you're right, however.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    No, his drivel isn't worth my time discussing. I'm sure you're right, however.
    Ok. Wow. Thank you, Mal.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Ok. Wow. Thank you, Mal.
    But I didn't agree with, "Not that I care, because you're not an especially sensible person to argue with about personality theory" as that is a matter of subjective opinion regarding style.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #19
    The Eighth Colour Octarine's Avatar
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    Kerisey...

    To start with I think the deviation from the functional preferences of MBTI and Jung is to remove the confusion about type preference order that you get when you consider x types.
    Kerisey emphasises the importance of matching the type descriptions vs a synthetic test result. (for better or worse)
    In terms of the type descriptions, they are incredibly specific as they were in part based on the psychological examinations of real people of those particular types.

    But it is the old story with specificity vs sensitivity. What Kerisey gains in specificity, he loses in sensitivity and we find that many of the specific aspects listed in a particular portrait don't actually match the real people we know of that particular type.

    This is not a big deal to me because I already take the typological systems with a healthy dosage of salt.

    But perhaps you should re-read books like Gifts Differing as well? Because although the type descriptions try to be more abstract (based on the preferences), some strange details seem to have slipped in to that book as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    it wasn't written in the 1950's when many working class people actually did wear home made clothes, still.
    Keirsey was born in 1921, so maybe you might be onto something after all...

  10. #20
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catbert View Post
    Kerisey...
    Keirsey was born in 1921, so maybe you might be onto something after all...
    I've seen this with her buddy Speed too. Neither one of them considers the context of the subject they are criticizing. Everything is judged by their personal standards of their particular day. Stop and consider by that who is in the right here, those who wrote from a personal context which they couldn't help, or those that behave like Archie Bunkers toward them.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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