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  1. #41
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Inclusion - Supine, sometimes melancholy
    Control - Melancholy, maybe phlegmatic
    Affection - supine, but feedback from others say melancholy

    I usually test melancholy-phlegmatic, which might be supine on tests which don't have it as a result, except I'm not into serving people.
    Well, the whole "service" thing is more the control area, so if you're Phlegmatic in Control, that will temper the Supine in the other areas. You'll be more independent than pure Supines.

    Being enneagram 4w5 sp/sx, I think the 4 elitism & 5 self-sufficiency & self-preservation instinct tend to look "melancholy", but the 4 & sexual instinctual desire for close, intense connection with others is more supine, especially as a 4 will simply fantasize about it & not take action.
    Yes, the Supine is like that too. They are slow to take action, yet simply want from others, and are often frustrated because people do not know their wants. So they look like Melancholies, and that's probably why others say you are. (In Affection). So can you testify to wanting from others, and being frustrated that they think you don't want? (e.g. like a Melancholy)

    I take the 4 as more between the Supine and Melancholy, though I'm not strictly pushing those correlations. From the videos and descriptions I saw, the 6 looked more Supine than the 4, so I made the 6 the pure Supine, and the 4 a moderate variation (Supine Phlegmatic or Melancholy Phlegmatic). If that's true, and you're a 4, then you might have only a moderate need of Affection, and then yes, you're almost a Melancholy in that area.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  2. #42
    Senior Member Silveresque's Avatar
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    I've reread the descriptions and changed mine a bit:

    Inclusion: Melancholy-Compulsive
    Control: Phlegmatic
    Affection: Supine

    Hey, @Eric B, being melancholy-compulsive sucks. Is it possible to change that or am I doomed?

  3. #43
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Well, temperament is supposed to be the same for life, but of course, it is possible to have misidentified it. Especially if choosing one when your behavior is being affected by some sort of situation or need at the particular moment that might make it look different.

    Like what made you go from Phlegmatic to Melancholy-Compulsive? Melancholy Compulsives are extreme loners who really don't want to be bothered with people at all. A Phlegmatic can take them or leave them, and may seem like a Melancholy if he needs to reserve his emotional energy, which might be drained by people. So I could see a Phlegmatic going back and forth.

    and now, Phlegmatic in Control? I could see myself fitting that, and again, it is from the balance of the two opposite temperaments in Inclusion and Control. Inclusion pulls you one way, and Control pulls you the other. So you end up something inbetween, like a Phlegmatic or Melancholy.
    Did you ever try that Helen Fisher test I mentioned? That's where a lot of INTPs who don't recognize Choleric in the regular temperament descriptions, do choose the "Director" type, which does obviously correspond to Choleric. http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...m-why-her.html
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Well, temperament is supposed to be the same for life
    Hrrm...I can see this actually, except my inclusion as a child/young adolescent could have been downright Supine...possibly due to shyness/social anxiety...then graduated to Phlegmatic as I got older and more confident...which isn't saying much, but at least I'm much more comfortable with approaching others.

  5. #45
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Temperament is based on needs, and what often happens, is that a person is more inhibited as a child, and thus often appeared more "introverted". This could be from their upbringing (parents, etc), or other factors makign them afraid to be more expressive. When they got older, then, they were not longer bound by the inhibition.

    The same need was there all along (a need to express, or understimulatability towards the outside world), only they didn't act upon it as much.
    The same often happens in reverse for introverts, who seem more expressive as children, but as life gets to them, they clam down and are no longer as sociable. The're ultimately overstimulatable, and the real need was to be left alone, and it surfaced as youthful energy ran out.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  6. #46
    Senior Member Silveresque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Well, temperament is supposed to be the same for life, but of course, it is possible to have misidentified it. Especially if choosing one when your behavior is being affected by some sort of situation or need at the particular moment that might make it look different.

    Like what made you go from Phlegmatic to Melancholy-Compulsive? Melancholy Compulsives are extreme loners who really don't want to be bothered with people at all. A Phlegmatic can take them or leave them, and may seem like a Melancholy if he needs to reserve his emotional energy, which might be drained by people. So I could see a Phlegmatic going back and forth.

    and now, Phlegmatic in Control? I could see myself fitting that, and again, it is from the balance of the two opposite temperaments in Inclusion and Control. Inclusion pulls you one way, and Control pulls you the other. So you end up something inbetween, like a Phlegmatic or Melancholy.
    Did you ever try that Helen Fisher test I mentioned? That's where a lot of INTPs who don't recognize Choleric in the regular temperament descriptions, do choose the "Director" type, which does obviously correspond to Choleric. http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...m-why-her.html
    I suppose it's possible I could have misidentified my temperament. It's possible I could be phlegmatic or normal melancholy in inclusion, but I seem too reclusive for that. Sometimes I even dread social interaction because I usually don't particularly enjoy it. On the other hand, I often do want people to approach me and will be friendly when they do, but that's probably because of my supine affection. If I'm busy or have something else I was planning on doing, I generally don't want to be bothered. I think I misinterpreted that chart that says melancholy is "everyone OUT except for exclusive club". I didn't think that fit me because it sounds mean, like I'll forcefully push people out or not include them, but I don't think that's really what it's like. I think melancholys (at least when mixed with phlegmatic and supine) don't necessarily exclude people, they just don't approach people and don't always like being approached. I think my supine especially tempers this, because I do want people to approach me (unless I'm not in the mood), and that could have made it look more like phlegmatic, since I don't really mind who approaches me or wants to be friend, I can "take 'em or leave 'em".

    When I read the control descriptions, the one that seemed to fit me best was melancholy-phlegmatic, but I assume that the melancholy flavor comes from the melancholy in my inclusion area, so I could easily be pure phlegmatic for control. It actually makes quite a bit of sense, because when I'm in charge, I don't like to be the one making decisions, I like to get other people's opinions and have sort of a democracy.

    I just took that Helen Fisher test and got Negotiator-Builder.

    EDIT: Negotiator fits me, but none of the others fit me very well. The only parts of builder that fit me are being loyal and dependable. I'm not social or traditional at all. The only part of director that fits me is that I'm analytical. I'm not decisive, aggressive, or tough-minded at all.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Silveresque's Avatar
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    By the way, how could I tell whether I'm melancholy or melancholy-compulsive? It seems like melancholy-compulsive is a more extreme version, but how extreme does it have to be to qualify as that?

  8. #48
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    I'll give it a shot:

    Inclusion: Melancholy or Supine
    Control: Melancholy, with maybe a bit of Phlegmatic or Supine
    Affection: Supine

  9. #49
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevlisZero View Post
    I suppose it's possible I could have misidentified my temperament. It's possible I could be phlegmatic or normal melancholy in inclusion, but I seem too reclusive for that. Sometimes I even dread social interaction because I usually don't particularly enjoy it. On the other hand, I often do want people to approach me and will be friendly when they do, but that's probably because of my supine affection. If I'm busy or have something else I was planning on doing, I generally don't want to be bothered.
    I think my supine especially tempers this, because I do want people to approach me (unless I'm not in the mood), and that could have made it look more like phlegmatic, since I don't really mind who approaches me or wants to be friend, I can "take 'em or leave 'em".
    What I'm seeing there looks very in between in the social area, which would fit Phlegmatic. Sometimes you want people, sometimes you don't.

    This would not be from Affection, because remember, you have to get past Inclusion first to get to Affection.

    In the FIRO theory, (here translated to APS temperament), Melancholies in Inclusion who are Sanguine in Affection are called "Affectionate Homebodies", and Cholerics in Inclusion with Supine in Affection are "Have Your Cake and Eat it Too". You can even get an idea of what I'm describing here from these names!
    Both combos have a low wanted Inclusion which carries an "exclusive club" mentality that people must meet a criteria to enter.
    And both also have a high wanted Affection, which wants to be open with people in relationships.

    Yet neither wants more people than their Inclusion temperament normally does because of this. The temperaments do modify each other across the areas, but only in certain ways. So both combos are described as using their Inclusion to select the few people they will then want to have an open deep relationship with. What it means is that they will be very aloof on the social level, but then more open and even needy toward those they do choose to associate with.

    What you're describing appears to lie entirely in the Inclusion area, and it looks like an ambivalence, which would fit Phlegmatic.

    One way in which the temperaments do modify each other for me, as that even as a Supine in Inclusion, I can feel like not being bothered with people when I'm in Control mode, trying to meet a goal, and wanting no interference. Like even trying to keep up on my daily internet circuit or other projects on the computer, and neglecting both Inclusion and Affection needs though other people. I don't think the Affection will influence the Inclusion that strongly, unless your Affection need is sorely lacking, so then you go searching for people (against your Inclusion need) to meet the Affection need.
    One way Affection is described as influencing Inclusion for a person who is Melancholy in both areas, is that they will choose a large impersonal group over a small, but more personal group, because the larger group actually meets their Affection need more than the smaller group would meet their Inclusion need, and the Affection need is more important to the person.

    I think I misinterpreted that chart that says melancholy is "everyone OUT except for exclusive club". I didn't think that fit me because it sounds mean, like I'll forcefully push people out or not include them, but I don't think that's really what it's like.
    No, those are not to be taken too literally. I guess that table is not really good to try to fit onesself off of, but then it wasn't really designed to do that; it was to give a rough idea of the general attitude of our needs.
    One doesn't have to meanly tell others "OUT". You just don't respond much to their approach. You would rather be left alone, unless they meet a criteria for inclusion.
    I think melancholys (at least when mixed with phlegmatic and supine) don't necessarily exclude people, they just don't approach people and don't always like being approached.
    Well, a pure Melancholy, and especially a Compulsive Melancholy, it would be more than just "don't always like being approached". They for the most part usually don't. In the FIRO concept, this was considered a form of "exclusion". Like with MBTI concepts, you can't be overly literal with these things, and there are exceptions and mitigating circumstances, of course.

    If you 'don't always' like being approached, (but do sometimes), then that sounds like a moderate wanted Inclusion. So if you're particularly low in expression, that could be Melancholy Phlegmatic or even Supine Phlegmatic as well.
    http://www.pastoral-counseling-cente...-inclusion.htm
    http://www.pastoral-counseling-cente...-inclusion.htm

    When I read the control descriptions, the one that seemed to fit me best was melancholy-phlegmatic, but I assume that the melancholy flavor comes from the melancholy in my inclusion area, so I could easily be pure phlegmatic for control. It actually makes quite a bit of sense, because when I'm in charge, I don't like to be the one making decisions, I like to get other people's opinions and have sort of a democracy.
    Again, I have that same tendency, but recognize it as the influence of Supine in Inclusion and Choleric in Control. I end up torn, because I do want to make decisions, but have a hard time accepting the rejection from others for stepping on their toes. (I see this has created a glass ceiling for me on the job, where the only promotions are to supervisory positions, and in this particular environment, I don't think I can "play" people enough. Most supervisors down here are ISTJ pure Melancholy, who don't care what you think, at least on the surface).

    I gave a good specific description of this dynamic, right above in post 39: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1672795
    I just took that Helen Fisher test and got Negotiator-Builder.
    That would go along with some sort of Phlegmatic Melancholy combo.

    Quote Originally Posted by RevlisZero View Post
    By the way, how could I tell whether I'm melancholy or melancholy-compulsive? It seems like melancholy-compulsive is a more extreme version, but how extreme does it have to be to qualify as that?
    Yeah, these profiles do not really make the difference that clear. It does briefly define it as
    "Note: 'Compulsive' means that this person tends to try to get this need met at any cost -- even when it is to his/her disadvantage to do so."

    So somebody like that is not likely going to have the apparent ambivalence in wanted Inclusion that you seem to indicate.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  10. #50
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    I'll give it a shot:

    Inclusion: Melancholy or Supine
    Control: Melancholy, with maybe a bit of Phlegmatic or Supine
    Affection: Supine
    Since you're decided only on I and F, and the blends between Melancholy and Supine would happen to be the IFJ's, then how's either ISFJ or INFJ?

    (And if you weigh between Mebahcoly and Supine in both of those areas, then what lies between them in this system is Melancholy Phlegmatic and Supine Phlegmatic, which I've mentioned to RevilsZero, above. That might sound like they lie between those temperaments and Phlegmatic, but in this system, Phlegmatic is the one that is between everything, so a blend of
    Phlegmatic with the other temperaments indicates a moderate scale lying between adjacent temperaments). Here again is the map of the whole thing:

    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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