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  1. #11
    Secret Sex Freak Hazashin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    (And sorry for my bad English - prepositions are tricky, man! )
    (Off Topic) Dude, you're English is better than mine, and I'm the one everyone (who knows me) goes to me for editing papers. You're English is fine!

    MBTI: INFP
    Enneagram: 6w7, phobic
    Tritype: 6-9-2
    Instinctual Variant: Sx/Sp
    Temperament: Pure Supine
    D&D Alignment: Neutral Good
    Political Stance: Solid Liberal
    Religious Views: Atheist

    Fi > Ne > Ti > Fe > Se > Si > Te > Ni

    "Forgiveness means letting go of the past." ~ Gerald Jampolsky
    "I am justice!" ~ Light Yagami, Death Note
    "The choices people make tell you a lot about a person, but the reasons [...] tell you even more." ~ Albus Dumbledore (paraphrased)

    Tatiana ♥

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Holy crap, this thread was a fantastic idea; Thank you @Viridian! Everyone's descriptions of modern SJs ring true for me so far. @KDude and @Marmie Dearest have it right.

    I have some friends who have read ESTJ descriptions in books and compared them to me, and the parts that made them LOL knowingly were the parts about being very rigid about things going the way I want them to. If I plan on watching a movie on Friday night, and friday night comes around and that plan gets ruined, it kills my mood in a way that can be obnoxious for friends and/or family to deal with. Of course, that's less of an SJ thing and more of an STJ thing. But regardless, it's an aspect of me that is unaffected by "traditional values" or really any sort of time specificity. Anyone of any age can act like that. I was acting like that when I was in kindergarten!

    p.s. I would also like to add that I know some older xNxJs who are as strict -- if not more strict -- about traditional values as/than stereotypical SJs. Which makes those stereotypes even less valid, and even more ridiculous.
    Oh gosh I know. There's nothing quite like an ENFJ enforcing their politically correct values or an uptight, rigid INTJ who says PEOPLE ARE THIS BLACK AND WHITE BIOLOGICAL WAY BECAUSE I THINK PEOPLE SHOULD BE SIMPLER TO UNDERSTAND SO I'LL COVER MY EARS AND HUM WHEN YOU POINT OUT FACTORS LIKE SOCIALIZATION AND CULTURAL INFLUENCE.

  3. #13
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I don't think the word "tradition" is misapplied to SJs, just that people are zeroing in on the narrowest definition of tradition.

    Tradition in regards to Si + Je types tends to mean following an established pattern because it's proved tried & true & maintains stability which allows people to be in control of what happens. Predictability ensures some level of productivity, but the unknown does not ensure much of anything.

    This amounts to cultural "common sense", which creates common standards so people can get stuff done without overthinking it & wasting time on constant experimentation. These are things we take for granted within our cultures, & it's not necessarily religion, politics or even world views. These are refined over time, and if they did change too fast, we would not be able to keep up & they'd lose their purpose.

    An example is: how do you enter a building? Through a door. You automatically look for a door. Are there other ways to enter a building? Yeah, but having a common standard makes life a bit easier. We can make simple assumptions about how something will be which allows us to turn our creativity to more significant areas.

    The inclination for stability is due to Si wanting to control the object, not to be controlled by it (true of all the introverted functions). This means they want to master the object, and that involves knowledge of the object's details, then using planning, order & structure to control it (Je). If looking for some non-standard entry to a building takes a lot of time & causes frustration, then the external physical world is mastering YOU.

    SJs especially take these "common sense" standards for granted, because they are inclined to be aware of them without trying, having an almost innate, inner sense of the factual/tangible nature of life. Their focus on their subjective impressions of experiences & facts can amount to an unconscious storehouse of them which quickly pulls up the appropriate interpretation of a sensory object, so that they know just how to react to it. No experience with it means they may approach it cautiously. If it has changed, they may note it quickly for this reason.

    So this does not mean SJs aren't open to change. SJs will often say they will embrace innovation as long as it has a good argument (preferably with some factual/tangible proof as support) for why it's better than the current mode.

    There's definitely a very individual nature to Si also. I think its Meyers who calls it "idiosyncratic". Their experience of the world is quite subjective & can result in quirks. I notice a lot of SJs feel "weird", and I suspect that's because their inner world is an extremely subjective view of the outer world (ie. like an impressionistic painting), and it's this view they identify with; but since Je is a judging according to the outer world, they may end up seeing themselves or their inner world as weird (not the outer world).
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #14
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Holy crap, this thread was a fantastic idea; Thank you @Viridian! Everyone's descriptions of modern SJs ring true for me so far. @KDude and @Marmie Dearest have it right.

    I have some friends who have read ESTJ descriptions in books and compared them to me, and the parts that made them LOL knowingly were the parts about being very rigid about things going the way I want them to. If I plan on watching a movie on Friday night, and friday night comes around and that plan gets ruined, it kills my mood in a way that can be obnoxious for friends and/or family to deal with. Of course, that's less of an SJ thing and more of an STJ thing. But regardless, it's an aspect of me that is unaffected by "traditional values" or really any sort of time specificity. Anyone of any age can act like that. I was acting like that when I was in kindergarten!

    p.s. I would also like to add that I know some older xNxJs who are as strict -- if not more strict -- about traditional values as/than stereotypical SJs. Which makes those stereotypes even less valid, and even more ridiculous.
    Well, thank you for the kind words, EJCC!

    I've been called "rigid" before and I get kinda peeved when my plans for [insert time period here] are ruined, which has made me wonder whether I'm a gen Y SJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazashin View Post
    (Off Topic) Dude, you're English is better than mine, and I'm the one everyone (who knows me) goes to me for editing papers. You're English is fine!

    Hah, thanks! I also worked as a text editor (in my mother tongue) for a while. Weird coincidence, huh?

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