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Fe politics versus Fi politics

Kiddo

Furry Critter with Claws
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
2,790
MBTI Type
OMNi
New rule:

You cannot accept the virtues of a function without accepting the potential flaws.

There. Does that solve the argument?

No, I would say the rule should be that you can't really interpret how a function works unless you consider it in relation to the other present functions.

In other words, extrapolating what flaws may exist in a judging function if there was no perceiving function to correct the flaws is silly.

In fact, it could be argued there are 8 different types of Fe and 8 different types of Fi.
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
6,704
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ENFJ
No, I would say the rule should be that you can't really interpret how a function works unless you consider it in relation to the other present functions.

In other words, extrapolating what flaws may exist in a judging function if there was no perceiving function to correct the flaws is silly.

In fact, it could be argued there are 8 different types of Fe and 8 different types of Fi.

Then why are you raging against all Fi when there are 8 different types? And then it's not what you have but how you use it.
 

Kiddo

Furry Critter with Claws
Joined
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Messages
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OMNi
Then why are you raging against all Fi when there are 8 different types? And then it's not what you have but how you use it.

It's hard to feel prejudiced against such a dumb function. I feel sorry for the people who have to use it in any of its 8 varieties. Intuitive speculation measured to internal standards that results in feeling? It seems so subjective and unsubstantiated to me, but it is apparently objective to the person who is using it. In short, it is narrowed feeling. It isn't broad like Fe, but perhaps that means Fi has a bit more depth to it. Its simplicity also makes it more practical than Fe.

I think it is only when people attempt to use Fi broadly that it utterly fails. It has no sense whatsoever of how society should function. It is too inherently egocentric for that, and much better suited for individual happinesss.

In short...

Fi is to the individual what Fe is to society.

That being said...

Fi is to society and Fe is to the individual what the Titanic is to the iceberg. Fi should never be utilized broadly and Fe should never be utilized narrowly.

In theory, a well developed person would have two sets of values. One set that is essential to his/her individual happiness and one set for what he/she believes is essential to the happiness of society. By all reasonable accounts, those two sets should not correspond (unless you are Ayn Rand or Karl Marx). What is essential to an individual's happiness is not necessarily essential to society's happiness and vice versa.

If any of that makes any sense whatsoever to anyone besides me.
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
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...

Kiddo, I give up.

It is pointless to argue with you. You simply won't accept Fi into your worldview of things that are acceptable.

Which, you know, is kind of ironic.
 

Kiddo

Furry Critter with Claws
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
2,790
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OMNi
...

Kiddo, I give up.

It is pointless to argue with you. You simply won't accept Fi into your worldview of things that are acceptable.

Which, you know, is kind of ironic.

Did you stop reading my post half way through? :huh:

I accept it, I just don't like it. And take my word for it, it is as useless in deciphering society as Fe is as useless in deciphering conduct that best corresponds with individual happiness. A well balanced person needs to utilize both. Saddly, I am not "balanced". :devil:
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
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Did you stop reading my post half way through? :huh:

I accept it, I just don't like it. And take my word for it, it is as useless in deciphering society as Fe is as useless in deciphering conduct that best corresponds with individual happiness. A well balanced person needs to utilize both. Saddly, I am not "balanced". :devil:

I don't remember if I read it or not. I'm just sick of it. All of this F stuff is tiring me out.

Ideally there should be both but according to MBTI, an individual will naturally lean towards one or the other.

I'm just... very tired...
 

Jae Rae

Free-Rangin' Librarian
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
979
MBTI Type
INFJ
Is this Fi or Fe?

A friend emails to ask if we can take a walk. I explain that I'm using a skin cream that 1) irritates my skin which 2) causes people to stare. I suggest we get together for coffee at her house instead.

In response she says she has to check her schedule because she still has to clean her classroom before she goes away for a few days on Saturday. [Wait - didn't you just ask me for a walk?] I say it sounds like she's too busy now, we can try when she comes back.

Another friend, when she hears about the skin issue says "Of course."
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
Joined
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Messages
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Jae, that's not Fi versus Fe, that's just somebody being obnoxious. Do not confuse the two.
 

redacted

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
4,223
it's worth being mentioned that both types of feeling are genuine. Fi genuinely feels based on unconsciously chosen standards, and Fe genuinely feels based on standards borrowed from the environment.

it's not like when an Fi or Fe user is crying, one is somehow less genuine than the other...
 

proteanmix

Plumage and Moult
Joined
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1w2
Merged two threads about the same thing with the same people saying the same things.
 

SillySapienne

`~~Philosoflying~~`
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Is this Fi or Fe?

A friend emails to ask if we can take a walk. I explain that I'm using a skin cream that 1) irritates my skin which 2) causes people to stare. I suggest we get together for coffee at her house instead.

In response she says she has to check her schedule because she still has to clean her classroom before she goes away for a few days on Saturday. [Wait - didn't you just ask me for a walk?] I say it sounds like she's too busy now, we can try when she comes back.
I don't know if that's Fe, per se, but it is pretty lousy.

This friend seemed to want to do her part and schedule seeing you, sometime during the day, prior to her leaving on Saturday. She had no intention of altering, or modifying your "time-slot" and when she was suddenly hit by your "news" as to why you couldn't join her for a walk, she immediately realized that she couldn't really hang out with you and blunderingly tried to find some stupid excuse as to why she couldn't.

Bleh, she kinda sounds like she sucks.

Another friend, when she hears about the skin issue says "Of course."
I definitely want to say that this is an example of Fi, (though it could be an example of Fe, too).

If I were your friend and *wanted to actually see you and spend time with you* and asked you if you'd like to go for a walk, to hear your reasonings as to why you couldn't, I would totally be open to do our hanging out during the evening, totally.
 

redacted

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4,223
Is this Fi or Fe?

A friend emails to ask if we can take a walk. I explain that I'm using a skin cream that 1) irritates my skin which 2) causes people to stare. I suggest we get together for coffee at her house instead.

In response she says she has to check her schedule because she still has to clean her classroom before she goes away for a few days on Saturday. [Wait - didn't you just ask me for a walk?] I say it sounds like she's too busy now, we can try when she comes back.

Another friend, when she hears about the skin issue says "Of course."

both could be Fe or Fi, although the first sounds a little more likely Fi and the second a little more Fe. but either the internal or external standard could be assumed for those feelings...
 

Tallulah

Emerging
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
6,009
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INTP
Is this Fi or Fe?

A friend emails to ask if we can take a walk. I explain that I'm using a skin cream that 1) irritates my skin which 2) causes people to stare. I suggest we get together for coffee at her house instead.

In response she says she has to check her schedule because she still has to clean her classroom before she goes away for a few days on Saturday. [Wait - didn't you just ask me for a walk?] I say it sounds like she's too busy now, we can try when she comes back.

Another friend, when she hears about the skin issue says "Of course."

It seems to me that Friend A was probably wanting to go for a walk, and could have used some company. Maybe even asked you as an impromputu thought. When you suggested coffee instead, she was probably still planning on going for a walk, but since you wanted to hang out anyway, she needed to figure out when she could get together with you and have time to chat.

For her, it was more about the walk, and for you, it was her asking you to do something together. That's my guess. It sounds like something I'd do, honestly. For the record, I would definitely have sympathy for the skin cream thing, though. :smile:

I don't know if it's an Fe/Fi thing, though.
 

heart

heart on fire
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Messages
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I don't know if it's an Fe/Fi thing, though.

I agree. I don't really think this is an Fe/Fi thing, more of her being focused more on the walk itself it seems than sharing your company.

I would have agreed to the coffee and chat.

EDIT: Maybe there is a reason she didn't want to go back to her house, it is a mess or her husband is home in bad mood, etc. May not be about you at all, something going on with her at home.
 

sciski

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NSFW
Enneagram
6w7
It seems to me that Friend A was probably wanting to go for a walk, and could have used some company. Maybe even asked you as an impromputu thought. When you suggested coffee instead, she was probably still planning on going for a walk, but since you wanted to hang out anyway, she needed to figure out when she could get together with you and have time to chat.

For her, it was more about the walk, and for you, it was her asking you to do something together. That's my guess. It sounds like something I'd do, honestly. For the record, I would definitely have sympathy for the skin cream thing, though. :smile:

I don't know if it's an Fe/Fi thing, though.

That's how I would interpret the situation as well. It's not an Fe/Fi thing at all - just prioritising.
 

heart

heart on fire
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Yuck Yuck Yuck Yuck Yuck Yuck Yuck!

I tried to intuitively imagine what that would be like and it made me sick. It is still speculative, but I guess I can see where you are coming from. And upon reflection, I suppose that absorbing feelings from others could also be considered speculative.

But that does explain a lot of things. Like the last time I saw protesters at a Gay Pride parade, they were trying so hard to convince the gay people that they were unhappy because they were gay. I wanted to know how they could be so certain how others feel and now I know. Fi is scary.

Kiddo, do you realize that not all Fi dom people have prejudice against gays? You seem fixated to prove that they are. :shock:

There is a big leap between saying one can feel empathy for a person having their neck cut open and their life's blood drained away and saying that they assume a gay is unhappy and want to force him to change. Most Fi dom are too lazy to go chant at protests like that anyway, they would rather be home reading or daydreaming.
 

redacted

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4,223
Please explain why you think this.

well, it seems more likely that personal unconscious tendencies would lead to that kind of feeling than the current external standard.

but more likely is that there's an interplay of functions, and that behavior cannot be solely attributed to feeling. so i guess it's really a moot point, as are most points comparing one function in a vacuum to another one.
 

heart

heart on fire
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Where does it say in Jungian philosophy that sensitivity is an inherent part of feeling?

I have posted a small portion of his definition of Introverted Feeling:

Classics in the History of Psychology -- Jung (1921/1923) Chapter 10



Psychological Types

C. G. Jung (1921)
Translation by H. Godwyn Baynes (1923)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



4. The Introverted Feeling Type



....A superficial judgment might well be betrayed, by a rather cold and reserved demeanour, into denying all feeling to this type. Such a view, however, would be quite false; the truth is, her feelings are intensive rather than extensive. They develop into the depth.

Whereas, for instance, an extensive feeling of sympathy can express itself in both word and deed at the right place, thus quickly ridding itself of its impression, an intensive sympathy, because shut off from every means of expression, gains a passionate depth that embraces the misery of a world and is simply benumbed. It may possibly make an extravagant irruption, leading to some staggering act of an almost heroic character, to which, however, neither the object nor [p. 494] the subject can find a right relation.

To the outer world, or to the blind eyes of the extravert, this sympathy looks like coldness, for it does nothing visibly, and an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces. ..
 

Kiddo

Furry Critter with Claws
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Messages
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OMNi
I spent some time with a wizened, bisexual ENFP last night, and I think I have a grasp of what Fi is now.

He challenged me to contemplate my nonexistance, and that fact that I could not do so, despite the fact that I could not express why, is undoubtedly the essence of Fi. In fact, even Ayn Rand's axiom of "Existence exists" made sense from that perspective. It could probably even be argued that Fi is a different play on Rene Descartes. "I feel, therefore I am."

He then argued that his life is about his choices and anyone else's choices are incircumstantial. but he explained that does not negate that he cares about people or the choices they make, only that other's choices are irrelevant to his existence. The most important thing to him is his choices, because he believes they dictate his happiness. From an Fe perspective, that seems somehow cold, but from a Ti perspective, it seems incredibly realistic.

I can see why Fi users would consider Fe to be superficial by comparison. Fi is integrated at the core of a person's existence, and everything that is and ever will be of that person, as well as any choice a person ever makes in his or her life, is derived into the essence of Fi. It is feeling of indescribable depth, beyond reason or consideration because it is found entirely within the indisputable existence of the individual. What is observed as "egocentric" by the Fe, is actually feeling which is derived from the actual awareness of self. In fact, I can't think of a better way of describing the two...

Fi= feeling derived from consciousness of self
Fe=feeling derived from consciousness of others

That isn't to say that Fi isn't aware of others, but only that it is aware of others through its awareness of self. Which makes sense to me since I conceive my awareness of self through my awareness of others. Or in other words, how I percieve others percieve me, provides my perception of myself.

I can't really decide which would be superior to the other since they are so fundamentally different. If you are talking about identity, as in the character and attributes that are composed and asserted from a person's very entity, then Fi is superior. If you are talking about interdependence, as in how everything and everyone is connected and how those bonds are nurtured through self control and dedication to ideals, then Fe is superior.
 
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