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  1. #81
    ByMySword
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    You're wrong. If you want to be entirely responsible for yourself, fine... Build your own house and power it with energy you create.
    Otherwise... every single member of society you benefit from has the right to tell you what contribute to it. This includes things more complex than a simple flat tax.
    What sucks is that this is all hypothetical. But if I'm already contributing, then I can tell them what to contribute as well!!!!!!!!!

    Don't tell me what morals I should have. A government should be run on ethics, not morals. If I have money I inherited from my family, or if I earned it through my good efforts, then its MY money. I should be asked no more than anyone else. I pay my taxes, I abide by the law. Now, should I wish to help people out of the goodness of my own heart, then that's my right as well. I contribute to society by being a consumer in the economy and paying my taxes to the government.

    So no. I am not wrong.

  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    That's correct... But the argument here is once again about defining what really is "Caesar's".
    Well, in this case I'm interpreting it to mean that moral imperatives are different from legal imperatives. I agree with the Texans and disagree with you on whether rich people have earned their money and whether they should bear a disporportionate tax burden. They've earned their money under the law and the law should not be able to unreasonably take it away.

    That said, I think that morally, the rich owe a debt to the society that they live in. I think it's incumbent upon them to help those who are suffering. But I don't believe that it's the state's place to legally compel them to do so.

    So...

    Pay unto Caesar what is Caesar's (they earned it legally, it's theirs)
    Pay unto God what is God's (that doesn't mean they're off the hook morally)
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  3. #83
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByMySword View Post
    What sucks is that this is all hypothetical. But if I'm already contributing, then I can tell them what to contribute as well!!!!!!!!!

    Don't tell me what morals I should have. A government should be run on ethics, not morals. If I have money I inherited from my family, or if I earned it through my good efforts, then its MY money. I should be asked no more than anyone else. I pay my taxes, I abide by the law. Now, should I wish to help people out of the goodness of my own heart, then that's my right as well. I contribute to society by being a consumer in the economy and paying my taxes to the government.

    So no. I am not wrong.
    AHAH! Yes, I do prefer the word "ethics".

    To address a couple of points here... I honestly don't believe in inheritance. I consider heirs to fortunes as valid as heirs to crowns.
    I'm a merritocrat, and I think money should go to people based on working for it, using it well, and needing it. Fortune heirs did not work for it, certainly don't need all of it, and most of them don't know how to properly use money, because the odds just don't favor that a good-hearted genius will always be born to wealth.

    Now, if you earned it, then you deserve it, but I disagree with this country's criteria for earning wealth.

    On more technical grounds, I frankly don't think a highly captialist system sufficently helps people.

    EDIT: of course it's hypothetical! You're Intuitive, right? The very ropes that bind society are the concepts of encompassing interests and long term interests.
    Naturally, it's all very abstract. Society is a broad, complicated, and intangible thing. What do you expect?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  4. #84
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    Well, in this case I'm interpreting it to mean that moral imperatives are different from legal imperatives. I agree with the Texans and disagree with you on whether rich people have earned their money and whether they should bear a disporportionate tax burden. They've earned their money under the law and the law should not be able to unreasonably take it away.

    That said, I think that morally, the rich owe a debt to the society that they live in. I think it's incumbent upon them to help those who are suffering. But I don't believe that it's the state's place to legally compel them to do so.

    So...

    Pay unto Caesar what is Caesar's (they earned it legally, it's theirs)
    Pay unto God what is God's (that doesn't mean they're off the hook morally)
    I suggest that the law be changed.
    I think, even on terms of practical effectivity, the state should pull a variety of strings in the field of business.
    Are you familar with Mancur Olson?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  5. #85

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    What I don't get is...if rich people die and their heirs don't get their money, where does it go? I can only assume that you would prefer it go to the government to be purposed for social programs.

    I guess this is where I show my conservative stripes, but if the criteria for having money is who will use it the best, I'd rather leave it to my dog than have the government get it.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  6. #86
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    What I don't get is...if rich people die and their heirs don't get their money, where does it go? I can only assume that you would prefer it go to the government to be purposed for social programs.

    I guess this is where I show my conservative stripes, but if the criteria for having money is who will use it the best, I'd rather leave it to my dog than have the government get it.
    This is why nearly everyone, across the political spectrum, advocates simplifying the tax system. It would be easier to trust the government if it were a simple process, because that's so much easier to monitor.
    I prefer leaving heirs with a reasonable amount of money, but circulating most of the fortune into the social system As simply as possible.

    (Yeah... go ahead... brand a hammer and sickle on me. )
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  7. #87
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    This is why nearly everyone, across the political spectrum, advocates simplifying the tax system. It would be easier to trust the government if it were a simple process, because that's so much easier to monitor.
    Like say...a flat tax?

    I prefer leaving heirs with a reasonable amount of money, but circulating most of the fortune into the social system As simply as possible.

    (Yeah... go ahead... brand a hammer and sickle on me. )
    That would lead to an unprecedented amount of tax evasion.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  8. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    (Yeah... go ahead... brand a hammer and sickle on me. )
    I'll not do that. I despise red state/blue state polemics, and I won't further them by engaging in hyperbole.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  9. #89
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    Like say...a flat tax?
    Yes, in principle a flat tax does make sense, but it simply doesn't address all the issues I'm talking about on its own.

    The main reason I don't advocate the US switching to a flat tax right now is because I think its system is too screwed up to be ready yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    That would lead to an unprecedented amount of tax evasion.
    Not necessarily.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  10. #90
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Yes, in principle a flat tax does make sense, but it simply doesn't address all the issues I'm talking about on its own.

    The main reason I don't advocate the US switching to a flat tax right now is because I think its system is too screwed up to be ready yet.
    So it is too screwed up to simplify it? The only people I can imagine complaining loudly would be accountants.

    Not necessarily.
    How so? Virtually the only thing stopping people would be morals. I assure you that if I knew the government was going to take a large portion of my money upon my death, I wouldn't report it and I would make sure my family got it and knew how to spend it without getting caught.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

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