Fe politics versus Fi politics

[SillySapienne]

Whoa, you totally misread that.

I wasn't talking about the family of the guy who was hung. I was talking about a similar situation with another family and another guy. I don't have to personally know someone to empathize with them.

Okay, still, I need never know any man who was *actually* hanged, nor his family personally, to empathize about what he, i.e. any man, may, or must have felt prior to his death.

 

[Kiddo]

Okay, still, I need never know a man personally, who was *actually* hung to empathize about what he may, or must have felt prior to his death.

On reflection, I do admit that had I no experience with hanging whatsoever, then I might not be able to empathize with somebody who was being hung, or I would be very limited in doing so. Are you saying that an Fi person with no experience with hanging whatsoever would be different in that respect?

 

[SolitaryWalker]

If you say that, then you are overcomplicating feeling. Teaching is not without reasoning. Fe would be about how you felt about your mother, how you felt about your church, or how you felt about your street gang..

How is Feeling defined? Tell me which part here includes this strange reasoning you speak of?

feeling - Definitions from Dictionary.com

When it comes to understanding feelings outside of feelings, I agree I reflect on community standards, but not the standards themselves, only how I feel about them. ..

When you speak of how you feel 'about them' you step outside of the province of Fe. Of course no Fe person never steps outside of those standards, he would not do so had he been a pure type, which you obviously are not. But take a look at the more quintissential Fe types, like the ESFJ and the ISFJ. Sure they step outside of the community standards they endorse, but not as frequently as the NFJs. This furthemore adduces to my point that Fe as a faculty in itself is convention worshipping.

It's 3 in the morning. I'm going to bed. But don't think you are getting off easy.

 

[SillySapienne]

On reflection, I do admit that had I no experience with hanging whatsoever, then I might not be able to empathize with somebody who was being hung, or I would be very limited in doing so. Are you saying that an Fi person with no experience with hanging whatsoever would be different in that respect?

" I need never know any man who was *actually* hanged, nor his family personally, to empathize about what he, i.e. any man, may, or must have felt prior to his death."

 

[SillySapienne]

If ever I ask you to be brutally frank with me, I want you to disregard my question and tell me beautiful lies.

Lol, then why ask me to be brutally frank with you?!?!?

 

[Kiddo]

How is Feeling defined? Tell me which part here includes this strange reasoning you speak of?

feeling - Definitions from Dictionary.com

When you speak of how you feel 'about them' you step outside of the province of Fe. Of course no Fe person never steps outside of those standards, he would not do so had he been a pure type, which you obviously are not. But take a look at the more quintissential Fe types, like the ESFJ and the ISFJ. Sure they step outside of the community standards they endorse, but not as frequently as the NFJs. This furthemore adduces to my point that Fe as a faculty in itself is convention worshipping.

It isn't reasoning. Let me explain it from how I experience it. I just feel the things I pick up from the environment. Let's take the example of the man being hung and imagine I had no experience like it before. When I get their I would immediately absorb the feelings of the tension of the crowd, the shock the crowd felt when the execution was over, the sadness of the family, etc. I absorb the memories of feelings infinitely better than the memories of actual events. The next time I would go to a hanging, I would not even need a crowd or the family there. All those feelings from the first hanging would come back in a rush and I would be able to empathize with the situation much better. I would have prior experience with which to substantiate my feelings.

Would you call that convention worshiping?

 

[Kiddo]

" I need never know any man who was *actually* hung, nor his family personally, to empathize about what he, i.e. any man, may, or must have felt prior to his death."

But that seems so...impersonal. Your feelings would be based on speculation rather than on prior memories of feelings you had in similar experiences or on feelings you picked up from those around you. Nothing of you would be involved in the emphasizing. How is that "direct empathy"? I would rather not feel at all than try to empathize on speculation. It seems so...yucky.

 

[alcea rosea]

Functions of Type by Hartzler & Hartzler:

Fi: The Conscience
"The Introverted Feeling (Fi) function in each of us organizes our values to maintain personal integrity. But until the function develops somewhat, the values are primarily unconscious and the person find it difficult to articulate them. However, it still knows that people are important."

Fe: The Guide
"The Extraverted Feeling (Fe) part of each of us coordinates people and things to harmoniously achieve group and individual goals. Initiating, building, and maintaining personal relationships is a primary goal of the Guide."

 

[SillySapienne]

But that seems so...impersonal. Your feelings would be based on speculation rather than on prior memories of feelings you had in similar experiences or on feelings you picked up from those around you. Nothing of you would be involved in the emphasizing. How is that "direct empathy"? I would rather not feel at all than try to empathize on speculation. It seems so...yucky.

I thought you were going beddy-bye?

Back to the subject at hand.

I would say that I need not have my throat slit to actually viscerally feel/imagine what it would feel like to have my throat slit.

It's hard to explain but I viscerally and intuitively imagine how something would feel, and in turn, feel it.

 

[Kiddo]

I thought you were going beddy-bye?

Back to the subject at hand.

I would say that I need not have my throat slit to actually viscerally feel/imagine what it would feel like to have my throat slit.

It's hard to explain but I viscerally and intuitively imagine how something would feel, and in turn, feel it.

Yuck Yuck Yuck Yuck Yuck Yuck Yuck!

I tried to intuitively imagine what that would be like and it made me sick. It is still speculative, but I guess I can see where you are coming from. And upon reflection, I suppose that absorbing feelings from others could also be considered speculative.

But that does explain a lot of things. Like the last time I saw protesters at a Gay Pride parade, they were trying so hard to convince the gay people that they were unhappy because they were gay. I wanted to know how they could be so certain how others feel and now I know. Fi is scary.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

It isn't reasoning. Let me explain it from how I experience it. I just feel the things I pick up from the environment. Let's take the example of the man being hung and imagine I had no experience like it before. When I get their I would immediately absorb the feelings of the tension of the crowd, the shock the crowd felt when the execution was over, the sadness of the family, etc. I absorb the memories of feelings infinitely better than the memories of actual events. The next time I would go to a hanging, I would not even need a crowd or the family there. All those feelings from the first hanging would come back in a rush and I would be able to empathize with the situation much better. I would have prior experience with which to substantiate my feelings.

Would you call that convention worshiping?

No, but you haven't depicted the work of Fe in these statements. More so the interplay of Ni and Fe backed up by Ti.

 

[Kiddo]

No, but you haven't depicted the work of Fe in these statements. More so the interplay of Ni and Fe backed up by Ti.

How do you utilize a judging function without a perceiving function? Even CC explained Fi by discussing her intuitive speculation. As far as Ti, I doubt there is any present in that example.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

How do you utilize a judging function without a perceiving function? Even CC explained Fi by discussing her intuitive speculation. As far as Ti, I doubt there is any present in that example.

Judging function is not extricable from a perceiving in your psychic economy. In other words when you go on to make a decision, faculties of both judgment and perception inhered within this operation. However, when we dissect your patterns of thought we could see which notions in your mind were primarily inspired by judgment and which were primarily inspired by perception.

It is not possible for Ti not to be present in any of your value judgments as Ti is what makes it possible for you to communicate your feelings in objective terms. Likewise, it is also not possible for Intuition to work without sensation as without Sensation it would not possible to relate hunches to entities we all can observe. Hence, this reinforces my earlier point that all functions are necessary for your psyche to function.

 

[substitute]

This is Fi out of control.

Fi example.

Notice how she acted despite how everyone else was acting. (subjective)

This is Fe out of control.

Fe example.

Notice how she provided reasons and explanations for why she felt the way she did. (objective)

Any questions?

I haven't been here for ages, but I just randomly picked this thread and it opened on the page of this post, I checked out the links and laughed my ass off. Where do they FIND these people??!!

Can we find some for Ti and Te out of control?

 

[SillySapienne]

This is Fi out of control.

Fi example.

Notice how she acted despite how everyone else was acting. (subjective)

This is Fe out of control.

Fe example.

Notice how she provided reasons and explanations for why she felt the way she did. (objective)

Any questions?

Thanks Kiddo, I have effectively ruined my t-shirt from laughing so hard, (drool stains are hard to get rid of).

But, interestingly enough, I think that you have both examples mixed up, i.e. the first example is of Fe lunacy, and the second example is of Fi run amok!!!

And lastly, thank you, that first video made my week!!

 

[proteanmix]

Think about this. Say an Fi and Fe character see a man publicly hung. Fe will say OUUHH THAT IS cruel because my mother taught me so. An Fi man will feel ouuh that must have been strangling on his neck, how must he have felt at the last moments of his life, did he think of his kids, his wife, mother, sibblings, etc? He empathizes directly. How you figure that this way is somehow less ethically wholesome than the earlier described Fe way is beyond me..

Really bad example. Bad, bad, bad.

I can stretch my mind and imagine the times I've stubbed my toe on the bed or burned myself that the same feelings that applied to me apply to someone else. I don't need my mother to tell me some things. I really hope you revise your opinion of Fe and other functions you think lowly of.

And I don't think truth is something only Fi can appreciate. I can tactfully tell someone the truth and I want truth given to me. Sometimes I think when people conceptualize telling someone the truth, I think of the brutal truth where you try to rip someone's skin off their body all in the name of being "honest."

 

[Haphazard]

Oh God...

Extroverted judging functions, at its purest, only cares about it can readily see and judge. Thank goodness everyone's not only an extroverted judging function! Only an introverted judging function wouldn't be able to exist in the real world without serious problems -- it would be entirely unable to interact with other people and be something like Tommy from the rock-opera Tommy, deaf, dumb, and blind and caring for nothing but the judgments it can make from nothing.

I'd say be grateful that either of them exist, because otherwise the FPs and TJs would be nothing but results-whores with nothing holding them back at all, and the FJs and the TPs would only have their own version of logic that didn't work in the real world and no way to leave that prison.



...And I'd just like to note, lucky men are hung, unlucky men are hanged.

 

[SillySapienne]

...And I'd just like to note, lucky men are hung, unlucky men are hanged.

Hilarious!!!

I just fixed my errors.

Thanks

 

[Kiddo]

Really bad example. Bad, bad, bad.

Don't take it personally. He tries to extrapolate what the feeling judging functions are like outside of the perceiving functions and his obvious distaste for Fe shines through.

 

[Haphazard]

New rule:

You cannot accept the virtues of a function without accepting the potential flaws.

There. Does that solve the argument?