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  1. #1
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Default Another way of looking at the attitudes (abstraction and empathy)

    I had been having a debate on PerC with Naama (simply "INTP" over here), over the eight function model versus a four function model where opposite tandem mates combine to form "fabrications" of apparent "shadow" functions (i.e. reversed in attitude from the primary four).
    This led to a discussion of Jung's concept of "abstraction", which was actually associated with introversion rather than intuition, as it is commonly used! Likewise, "empathy" is associated with all extraversion, not just Fe.

    Abstraction http://www.nyaap.org/jung-lexicon/a/#abstraction
    A form of mental activity by which a conscious content is freed from its association with irrelevant elements, as a backflow of value from the object into a subjective, abstract content. [paraphrase: taking out what doesn't make sense to the functional perspective] Therefore, abstraction amounts to an energic devaluation of the object. I visualize the process of abstraction as a withdrawal of libido from the content. For me, therefore, abstraction amounts to an energic devaluation of the object.

    Empathy http://www.nyaap.org/jung-lexicon/e/#empathy
    An introjection of the object, based on the unconscious projection of subjective contents. Empathy presupposes a subjective attitude of confidence, or trustfulness towards the object. It is a readiness to meet the object halfway. The man with the empathetic attitude finds himself in a world that needs his subjective feeling to give it life and soul. He animates it with himself.

    I had already heard about this meaning of "abstraction" from Lenore, and just hadn't come to the point of integrating this way of looking at it into my understanding and exposition of the theory yet.
    It seems to be a more deeply technical way of expressing i/e that might take time to digest (as it gets into so many other concepts that aren't as widely used in hobbyist discussions), but can help further clarify what exactly the differences between function attitudes are.

    I still maintain the attitudes independently from the four functions, so that a person differentiates a dominant function, in a dominant attitude, and suppresses everything else, so that the other, undifferentiated functions "collect" in the opposite attitude, and the initial exception to this is the Puer complex which reorients the tertiary to the dominant attitude.
    The "shadows" then consist of negative versions of the first four complexes, which then reorient the four functions into the opposite attitudes from the primary assignments, generating eight "function-attitudes" connected to eight archetypal complexes.

    So I've been trying it out on myself. Here's how it appears to work with the "spine" tandems:

    Ti: free technical content from its association with irrelevant elements. Value is transferred from the object to the now subjective content (internalized "impersonal" frameworks)

    This is unconsciously compensated by:
    Fe: humane content is then entrusted to the object (A subjective attitude of trust is then introjected into other people or social values).

    Introverts make this transfer from the object to the subject. Their inner world is what they prefer, and the outer world is where they are less confident. So the dominant function with which they are most confident is introverted, and the inferior function is extraverted. This makes a lot of sense, naturally.

    I then wondered why extraverts make the transfer from the subject to the object. Why would they not want to favor their own subjective realm?
    I find that it seems to tie into concepts such as "identification" and "participation mystique" (Definitions available on Jung Lexicon). These involve the merging of the subject with the object. To them the object is what they identify with. And as the quote says, his subjective feeling is simply what he uses to give the outer world life.
    So then, the inner world in its own right is the untrusted realm.

    So while their ego entrusts the object with their preferred functional content, it is the internal world that is suppressed, and used to collect the other functions (again, until the Puer reorients the tertiary to the external) The inferior complex maintains the internal orientation, of course.

    So now, to do the opposite Thinking dominant types:

    ETJ:
    Te: technical content is confided to the object, which the ego identifies with (most likely whatever is being organized, or an objective, agreed upon standard).

    Fi: humane content is dissociated from object, (stripped of irrelevant elements). Value is transferred from the object to the now subjective content (internalized "personal" frameworks)

    ITP shadow:
    Te as OP: transfers value back to the object, in order to back up subjective content (e.g. shows how internally recognized frameworks are proven by external efficiency).

    Fi as right-brain "Crow's Nest": Switches subjective content from technical to humane, when a technical perspective doesn't solve the problem.
    As Demon: withdraws humane confidence entrusted in object (group standards) back into the subject. (Very negative, reactive process in which extreme vulnerability in interpersonal relations feels taken advantage of, and is compensated by a subjective counter-content that aims to destroy the threat).

    ETJ shadow:
    Ti as OP: transfers value from to subject, eliminating irrelevant elements, to back up objective content (e.g. shows how external efficiency is supported by internally held universal principles).

    Fe as left brain "Crow's Nest": switches objective content from technical to humane, when a technical perspective doesn't solve the problem.
    As Demon: formerly subjective humane content is now introjected into the object (reactive process in which extreme vulnerability in internal integrity feels taken advantage of, and is compensated by a subjective counter-content that aims to destroy the threat).

    (Hope I'm understanding "content" and "object" right).

    The other way the functions are said to work:
    Fe sees the value, Ti abstracts the values away that doesnt compute.

    I believe it does work like this as well. This would be the more normal situation, while the Crow's Nests and shadows are for the more stressful situations where Ti and Fe are not able to solve the problem, or are threatened by the situation.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  2. #2
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Continuing to try to integrate these ways of putting these things into a more refined definition (most recently inspired by INTP mentioning the Jung definitions again):

    S What it is, tangibly
    N What's its origin/destination, conceptually
    T What it is, technically
    F What's its worth, humanely
    e What I can add to it (merge with object)
    i What I can take out of it (according to subject)
    J Add to a set standard, subtract according to a data storehouse
    P Add to emergent data, subtract from variables according to an internal standard

    Se what I can add to what is tangible
    Si what I can subtract from what is tangible (not relevant to internal data)
    Ne what I can add to its conceptual trajectory
    Ni what I can subtract from its conceptual trajectory (not relevant to internal data)
    Te what I can add to what it is technically
    Ti what I can subtract from what it is technically (not relevant to internal standard)
    Fe what I can add to its humane worth
    Fi what I can subtract from its humane worth (not relevant to internal standard)
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  3. #3
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    OK, here I will match the basic Jungian "adding/subtracting" definitions of the function attitudes with Berens' simple key word definitions (which are basically true, but can become overgeneralized and ambiguous when not understood in the proper context). This to show how the concepts relate:


    Se experiencing and acting in the immediate context
    adding to what is tangible

    Something is happening (emergent situation) and you add yourself to it, as is.

    Si reviewing and recalling past experiences and seeking detailed data
    subtracting from what is tangible

    You've experienced a lot of things, and hold on to what is relevent for what you need for your goals, and eliminate everything else.

    This is good to know, for when I expect SJ's (including even dom's) to remember certain things, and they don't. (which would seem to call into question their type, like for my wife, who seemed to identify with Se more then Si based on the simple "experiencing" vs "remembering" definitions, and appeared to possibly be the Se-"using" ENFJ or ESFP types rather than ESFJ).

    However, what they remember is what is relevant (not just anything), and usually with a more serious purpose (hero, parent complexes), where to me, stuff less relevant to them (petty nostalgia) might be remembered, because Si is connected with a "child" or "relief" complex for me. So they will either not remember something, or they might (as they do have good memories), yet it will be like "Oh, yeah; that..."). It is remembered, but not relevant. (When it comes to holding on to relevant subtractions from data, my wife is actually a very typical stickler for that!)


    Ne Interpreting sitations and relationships and picking up meanings and interconnections to other contexts
    adding to an object's conceptual trajectory

    I see an object, and basically interject myself into it with ideas of how else it can be, what can be done with it, etc.


    Ni foreseeing implications, transformations, and likely effects
    subtracting from an object's conceptual trajectory

    To see an object, as well as multiple possibilities with it (hence, confusion with Ne definitions), and be able to recognize and eliminate what is not relevant, which will narrow it down to a likely outcome.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  4. #4
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Te segmenting, organizing for efficiency, and systematizing
    adding to what it is technically

    You merge with the technical content of an object, which results in a most efficient course of action with it. Like the example I used to use (from Sim), you would effectively "merge" with a desk that is messy, and the ego's natural recourse then' is to organize it eficiently.


    Ti Analyzing, categorizing and evaluating according to principles
    subtracting from 'what it is' technically.

    Like when I see something, and always extract a particular arrengement out of it (I'm avoiding "pattern", because that's usually associated with iNtuition).

    Like I love mirror symmetries, and usually look for them in both visual and conceptual constructs. My grandmother used to live in this garden apt. building Google Maps which consists of four quadrants (two of which, attached in the e/w direction), so to look across the court in any direction is like looking in a mirror. Straight across (either the attached or unattached quadrant) is a reverse version of the quadrant I'm looking for. The quadrant on the opposite side in both directions is a double negative that yields something identical to the quadrant I'm in; though rotated 180°.

    I would sit and look out the window admiring this, but it was "useless" in a practical sense, and no one else was really interested in it. (Here's another one I used to live near, and always liked. Google Maps The attachment is now in the n/s direction).

    Forward to recent years, I find that temperament theory is like an abstract version of the same symmetry, with the E/I and people/task dimensions. (With the addition of a fifth "neutral" element directly in center). This now is more useful, both for myself understanding people, and with the internet now, I can find others who are interested. (In my SJ environment, without the internet, I would have been in the same boat as before).

    As Jung conceived it, what was "subtracted" was what was NOT relevant, but you could look at it either way. (Hence, you could call the process "splitting", while in extraverted function is about "merging"). I focus on the content relevant to my own subjective likes (symmetry), and everything else becomes irrelevant (like practical uses, efficiency etc. which become secondary).

    (This should also show that "liking" is a product of the ego, and not necessarily "Fi". If the content were more humane, it would be, but here, it is purely technical, or "impersonal")

    Of course, the "principles" are those elements I look for in things. "Categorizing" would also stem from common threads in different seen as relevant. Like to most people, "a building is a building", but I had taken notice that buildings like those are very hard to find outside of NYC. This based on the age (pre-war), design, etc. In New England, for instance, they'll be planer, smaller and usually have bulky wooden "porches" instead of fire escapes.
    Al of this is irrelevant or at least less relevant to most people but it makes these categories stand out to me in a way they don't to others.

    Fe Connecting and considering others and the group
    adding to humane worth

    This one is simple. You add yourself to or merge with a group, and its values. Hence, if you see someone has a want or need, you "consider" them.

    Fi valuing and considering importance, beliefs and worth
    subtracting from its humane worth

    You look at values (of a group, or those involved in an evolving situation) and recognize and eliminate those variables not relevant. Like a group might agree to do something that hurts another, and even justify it with some form of moralization. What comes to mind these days, is the assertion of people like Gingrich that the poor are just lazy and need a stronger ethic. This veneer of moralization can be removed (subtracted, split off), and the real needs of the people (even if "unspoken"; often not articluated well by the liberal establishment that purports to be their main defenders) are brought out and focused on. (To be fair, this can be used by the conservatives, seeing a greater need of a work ethic —splitting off class rhetoric; though my and others' issue with them is the overgeneralization of the poor and other groups; basically in defense of the rich whom they support).

    So Fi can "consider others" as well as Fe, the difference is whether you do it by adding to the object in need, or by subtracting the deeper needs from the surface data of the object.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  5. #5
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Finally you are getting a hang of it, apparently our arguments at perc about mbti/beebean vs jung wasnt total waste of time

    Next you should look in more depth how concrete functions operate with other functions.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  6. #6
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    What are "concrete functions" and "other functions" again? (Not even Google turns up anything on that. I see "concrete symbols").
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

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